US Pilots Labor Discussion 10/13-- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

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No. But they love to point out how hard they think it is to win a DFR suit, even though the West already did that once.

I chalk it up to confirmation bias... only seeing evidence that supports one's opinion and prefabricated conclusion, while refusing to accept any evidence that proves the contrary, no matter how compelling.
The west winning a DFR suit and citing that is like citing a football game where a team "won" the game by kicking the extra point. And then the point was taken off the scoreboard for a penalty. This is getting old and it is not true either. They won no DFR suit, and you know it. It has been erased.
 
Not certain but I think it is 3:40. 27 days will be around 98:40 or so pay if it is all in one month. You should check to make sure it is not 3:45, that would take you over 99 hours, which can carryover pay, and that may not be what you want to do.

Never tried it but if I put all 31 days into one month the pay would go way over 99 and cause problems. I bid 4 seperate weeks and the extra days as a seperate week, usually end up with 5 two week or better breaks. Let me guess, you want the entire month of july? Got some Alaska plans next year?


Here is a question for the board.

Why is it Seham sends Granath to represent his clients in front of a judge, yet has the time to go to Phoenix for a DOH dog and pony show that he has no real bussiness attending?
The better question would be this: why on earth does the west continue to send Jacobs on legal missions that make USAPA's case? Every time Jacobs goes to bat, he gets a clarification from a court or judge that kills his mission. He got the 9th to admit the Nic isn't a requirement, and got Wake to clearly ERASE Addington.
 
The better question would be this: why on earth does the west continue to send Jacobs on legal missions that make USAPA's case? Every time Jacobs goes to bat, he gets a clarification from a court or judge that kills his mission. He got the 9th to admit the Nic isn't a requirement, and got Wake to clearly ERASE Addington.

Why the stunning lack of progress or any signs of success with DOH then? Why still languishing on LOA93 and food stamps after all these years and after the hundreds of millions in profit? USAPA's case requires no explanation. Evading Binding arbitration because you don't like the result isn't legal. If seniority were a crew meal, you'd all stop qualifying for food stamps by now. Sadly, :lol: that's not the case.
 
The west winning a DFR suit and citing that is like citing a football game where a team "won" the game by kicking the extra point. And then the point was taken off the scoreboard for a penalty. This is getting old and it is not true either. They won no DFR suit, and you know it. It has been erased.
No, it's more like two football teams playing a legitimate game where one side records a decisive 56 to 0 victory. Then, six months after the game is over and everyone knows who won and who lost, the league office comes back and says that due to a scheduling error they determined that the game should not have been played and the results are being reversed. Regardless of what the league office says, everyone knows who won and who lost when the final whistle blew. Should those two teams meet again with all of the same payers, who do you think the odds would favor?

Lack of jurisdiction and the legal merits of the case are two very different issues, but the east, as always, are blinded by their own myopic, self-serving bias.
 
Remember, 80% of these guys and gals learned what they know at Mesa. They don't like it if you flew an F-4......

Are you sure? Can you prove this? I used to fly F4's. Just finished a trip with a guy who also flew F4's and F15's. Handed off our aircraft to a guy who used to fly F16's and his FO currently flies KC135's in the reserves. Then again, I flew with a lowly civilian pilot last week who just flew 747's all over the world until he was hired by AWA. I did last month fly with a guy who spent most of his career previous to AWA at Mesa. One of the sharpest pilots I've met. :)
 
The better question would be this: why on earth does the west continue to send Jacobs on legal missions that make USAPA's case? Every time Jacobs goes to bat, he gets a clarification from a court or judge that kills his mission. He got the 9th to admit the Nic isn't a requirement, and got Wake to clearly ERASE Addington.
The 9th didn’t say that the NIC wasn’t a requirement in this case. Rather they said what everyone already knows – that in most situations a seniority list is viewed by the courts as being an internal matter within a wide range of reasonableness, and that ripeness unquestionably occurs upon ratification. Upon this “thank you captain obvious but why didn’t you look at the actual facts in this case” decision, they remanded the matter back to the district court for lack of jurisdiction. The merits were not reviewed by the 9th and they made no such legal ruling on the merits.

The benefits provided by the 9th to the Addington case are 1) ensured that $eham’s claim of the matter being past the statute of limitations has been definitively resolved in favor of the plaintiffs, and 2) provided an opportunity to pursue a more clear and definitive definition of ripeness by the SCOTUS. A win for Addington at the 9th would have been great, but a loss on the basis of jurisdictional ripeness is just one small step in a much larger process. As much as you may want this to be over based on a small, indeciisive win, there are many more steps in the process to go.
 
No one here is stupid! You know full well that part of accepting employment involves looking at career advance potential and the average age of pilot pool.
Many holes in this theory. For one thing, separate ops is not going to be permanent, especially for a new hire. They will be left holding the bag when you leave, aside from making bankruptcy, poverty level wages in the mean time. Second, a closer look at how many retirements will happen from medical leave, sick leave, and the right seat paints a much less rosy picture. Third, look how good the "career advancement" analysis worked for the 17 year furloughed pilots of the east. Everyone knows that downsizing can easily outpace attrition, especially at US Airways, who is currently and for the foreseeable future without a consolidation partner.

I wouldn't count on all those "new soldiers" walking in lock step to fight someone else's battle only to be left paying the consequences down the road for those people's entitlement.
 
Game over until the NMB lawyers parachute into the courtroom.
Until the NMB lawyers parachute into the courtroom and tell USAPA they must now negotiate in good faith since the company has every legal motive to abide by the result of binding arbitration, and the days of delay and separate ops forever are over.

everyone knows who won and who lost when the final whistle blew. Should those two teams meet again with all of the same payers, who do you think the odds would favor?

Exactly. One can ignore history, but cannot erase it. The merit of DFR I stood on it's facts when they were examined. There's a very good chance they will stand on their own again.
 
Both state courts and federal courts strongly adhere to arbitration rulings when done under any contractual or consensual agreement of the parties.
Would the Air Wisconsin and MVA arbitration fall into that category?
 
Wow. I can't believe that at this stage there is still confusion about (or refusal to accept) this basic point about arbitration.

But here goes. From the Supreme Court, United Paperworkers Int'l Union v. Misco, 484 U.S. 29 (1987), http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=484&page=29

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I have done enough free legal research for the morning.

Thank you Bear96. I don't have readilly available access to a complete law library nor do I want to pay online fees. I did know the principle and public policy, but folks keep contending that I am in error on that without ever answering the question of what would life be like without arbitration and the finality of arbitration. If it weren't for that courts would be hopelessly clogged and there would be no need for arbitration since a loser would always take the arbitration results to the nearest court.

Thanks again.
 
Many holes in this theory. For one thing, separate ops is not going to be permanent, especially for a new hire. They will be left holding the bag when you leave, aside from making bankruptcy, poverty level wages in the mean time. Second, a closer look at how many retirements will happen from medical leave, sick leave, and the right seat paints a much less rosy picture. Third, look how good the "career advancement" analysis worked for the 17 year furloughed pilots of the east. Everyone knows that downsizing can easily outpace attrition, especially at US Airways, who is currently and for the foreseeable future without a consolidation partner.

I wouldn't count on all those "new soldiers" walking in lock step to fight someone else's battle only to be left paying the consequences down the road for those people's entitlement.

767,

imo, your holes.
1) Never claimed separate ops permanancy. It is likely for a long time and possibly end result favoring new hire. East wages going forward will not remain stagnant for much longer than 6 mos. imo. Longer than that and LCC will see major traffic losses imo. I do not post threats or advise such on a forum. That would be stupid.
2) your second point is zero sum in any discussion.
3) That 17 yr pilot had various career expectations throuhout carreer. Up and down as most airline jobs provide. Diference is that AWA expects to cash in on a particular snapshot of a particular date. Way to many unknowns/variables of "known" truth to justify that lottery ticket.

FA
 
767,

imo, your holes.
1) Never claimed separate ops permanancy. It is likely for a long time and possibly end result favoring new hire. East wages going forward will not remain stagnant for much longer than 6 mos. imo. Longer than that and LCC will see major traffic losses imo. I do not post threats or advise such on a forum. That would be stupid.
2) your second point is zero sum in any discussion.
3) That 17 yr pilot had various career expectations throuhout carreer. Up and down as most airline jobs provide. Diference is that AWA expects to cash in on a particular snapshot of a particular date. Way to many unknowns/variables of "known" truth to justify that lottery ticket.

FA
Your opinions may not be shared by new hires. So the idea that they will inevitably and unquestionably support USAPA's desire to avoid binding arbitration is questionable at best. More likely they will come to the East realizing that when the dust settles, they will be on the bottom behind pilots already at the combined company, even if they temporarily get a boost by being ahead of some west pilots initially. With that in mind, I doubt they will vote in lockstep with current USAPA east members, as was theorized by someone.
 
Thank you Bear96. I don't have readilly available access to a complete law library nor do I want to pay online fees. I did know the principle and public policy, but folks keep contending that I am in error on that without ever answering the question of what would life be like without arbitration and the finality of arbitration. If it weren't for that courts would be hopelessly clogged and there would be no need for arbitration since a loser would always take the arbitration results to the nearest court.

Thanks again.


Held:

1. The Court of Appeals exceeded the limited authority possessed by a court reviewing an arbitrator's award entered pursuant to a collective-bargaining agreement. Pp. 36-42. [484 U.S. 29, 30]

The Nicolau award was not awarded nor was it determined pursuant to a collective bargaining agreement. It was the result of the internal process of a de-certified bargaining agent. The process was designed to arrive at a bargaining position for seniority to be presented to management during negotiations.

If we were still in ALPA I would agree with the assessment above.
 
767,

imo, your holes.
1) Never claimed separate ops permanancy. It is likely for a long time and possibly end result favoring new hire. East wages going forward will not remain stagnant for much longer than 6 mos. imo. Longer than that and LCC will see major traffic losses imo. I do not post threats or advise such on a forum. That would be stupid.

FA
Six months? In six months the east pilots are going to finally grow tired of LOA93 and begin what, an illegal job action? How long before the Feds come in and hammer USAPA for doing something so foolish? How will such an action look in the courts and with the NMB when it comes time to rule in favor of Management vs. the pilots who show over and over again that they are incapable of obeying the law, honoring their agreements, or approaching negotiations with a good and realistic attempt to get a contract? I predict more substantial losses for USAPA and the east pilots if this is their next best strategy. Talk about just gift wrapping and handing a victory to the other side of the table! I wouldn't advocate violating the law (USAPA's core tenent I beleive), but I can't wait to see how it unfolds if this is what the east pilots decide to do.
 
Held:

1. The Court of Appeals exceeded the limited authority possessed by a court reviewing an arbitrator's award entered pursuant to a collective-bargaining agreement. Pp. 36-42. [484 U.S. 29, 30]

The Nicolau award was not awarded nor was it determined pursuant to a collective bargaining agreement. It was the result of the internal process of a de-certified bargaining agent. The process was designed to arrive at a bargaining position for seniority to be presented to management during negotiations.

If we were still in ALPA I would agree with the assessment above.
And, that "process" resulting in presenting that "bargaining position" to management who in turn accepted the same and paid the bargaining agent for the finalized list per the terms of the TA. Let's not forget those additional details shall we? Perhaps we also shouldn't forget that when the former, now decertified, bargaining agent was replaced by USAPA, that USAPA inherited all of the rights, responsibilities and contractual agreements made by the former agent. That includes the TA which wasn't purely an internal matter or agreement within ALPA.
 
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