US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/6- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[Phoenix]

Double Post

 

[end_of_alpa]

Lynyrd..
You of course are right. I was referring to Captain Dave S. out of Phoenix. I apologize for the confusion. Dave C's recent activity is interesting to say the least, but considering his track record out of the PHL ALPA office and ALPA then placing the PHL ALPA office in trusteeship leads me to believe that he is NOT the leader that we need in USAPA.

I think the only way to make USAPA work is if you elect and appoint an equal number of east & west pilots in key positions. Perhaps alternate an east, then a west pilot in the president seat and the same for the VP seat, etc. Further, we have got to change the CBL's to reflect equal representation of all pilots and pilot bases. Once we have done that, we can march to the same tune. If we fail to do so, we are doomed to continue down the path that is presently set before us. For some, that path will possibly cost some individuals serious assessments.

The choice is up to each of us. Oppose, lurk, or ignore all together....then you stay on path. Join us at: www.cactuspilot.com to make a change.

Why should "west" pilots hav MORE representation than East pilots??

Any "pilot" that "joins" an anti-labor union corporate sanctioned website like cactuspilot.com is simply letting the MINORITY take control. I think they call that single party communism. There is not a system that has EVER been run like you describe in the FREE world. As usual and typical west pilots want GREATER representation and RECOGITION for their GREATER view of the airline world. You can return to your DREAM world of utopian rule, and be master of YOUR universe. Oh, by the way, any labor organization YOU describe raises constitutional issues by itself. I won't "polute" my time with your anti-labor site.

I went to the union meeting yesterday. As usual, the west pilots were glum. Having said that, all this banter about the office manager and DC would have been explained if you were there. The constitution and bylaws are VERY specific: the EVP ANSWERS TO THE PRESIDENT.

"The Executive Vice President shall be responsible to execute policy of the Board of Pilot Representatives acting under the jurisdiction of the President."

The president is his boss. This provision of the constituion should NEVER have been an elected position. The EVP is an office manager and should NEVER been held by "high paid" pilots. A vote for a constitutional amendment should be out soon.

If any of you West pilots want to make any difference you could participate, but I hope not. I was there to tell them that, as of right now, our pilots are essentially working as at will employees. Of course they agreed.

I also talked to many of the current and former BPR reps and encouraged them to consider the possibility of forming a separate corporation that protects the FEDERAL STAUTORY RIGHTS under the EEOC of EQUAL TREATMENT FOR EQUAL WORK. That includes the recognition of MY YEARS OF SERVICE in relation to YOUR years of service. That also includes the FACT that I have the same qualifications and responsibilities to act as pilot in command. The "PIC qualified first officers" should be paid the same as the captains....in fact, we need to ELIMINATE those two words from pilots vocabulary...there should be either "PIC qualified" or nothing. Pilots don't deserve the rank of Captain, which is really a management function. Pilots can barely manage a bowel function as it stands now.

ALL OTHER employee groups get treated that way, why should PILOTS be different.

Oh that's right, pilots are special, especially WEST pilots. Let's face it, I don't like to use the "n" word so let me just say that there is only a snowballs chance in hell that the interests of west pilots and East pilots will Never be together. That was evident yesterday.

We will sue US Airways for disparate treatment and disparate impact claims under the EEOC. We can also add AOL as a named party. I like all this lawsuit stuff.

Of course we learned THIS tactic from our West brothers and sisters. They were very receptive. We're preparing for that possibility.

Thank you WEST pilots for showing us the way.If and when our "labor union" ever disappears is when that issue becomes ripe. Not while labor representation exists on the property, however.

Enjoy your festering propaganda over at cactuspilot.com. I'll scab before I would join the likes of THAT organization.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Admittedly (as previously stated, Dave can get somewhat over zealous) the goat video was a bit much. In frustration we watched Bradford lead a band of USAPA organizers to form a "union", the sole purpose of which was to negate the final and binding seniority arbitration.

If you could get the USAPA Van to Seniority Freedom to admit to their transgressions, perhaps Dave would also apologize. What we have here is a situation that we all need to get over. We can start by electing a joint cadre of east and west pilots to makeover USAPA. We can make this happen together, BUT it will take every lurker and "head-in-the-sand" US Airways pilot to become a Member in Good Standing (MIGS) and exercise your voting rights.

The ONLY parties that have ultimately won in the past 4.5 years is LCC & SSM&P. Only we can change that as a collective body. Only when we stop pointing fingers and get past the pointless litigation will we be able to aim our will toward LCC.

What say you?

Not on YOUR terms. That means NO to you.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I was reading a bit of Solzhenitsyn and came across this bit which reminded me a lot of the east:

To do evil a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good . . . Ideology—that is what gives evildoing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination.

The ideology, in this case, is DOH. And I'll admit that this is a bit exaggerated, but the idea is fairly sound.

At the time of the merger announcement, we had east pilots whose careers were in full retrograde and a significant number of FO who would never see the left seat again. The merger reopened an opportunity for those FO's to upgrade and it was assumed that America West would play nice and allow it to happen. After all, the east had "done this before" and they'd be the ones to show us how it was done.

But it didn't go as planned.

The east left a seven year fence on the table to go to med/arb to pursue their DOH agenda. But why, you ask, would they leave a fence on the table?

Fences work both ways in that they would have kept the west out of east domiciles, but would have also kept east pilots out of PHX. That was unacceptable because it would have closed that upgrade door many of the east FO's were hoping for with this merger. If they couldn't upgrade out east, the out west would be a fine second choice. Heck, some easties came out just after the merger was announce to look at houses in Scottsdale and Anthem.

And so began to all or nothing push toward DOH. The east MC was mandated by their MEC to come back with nothing less under threat of recall. And when Nicolau can back with a relative seniority integration, the wheels came off in the east and emotion was allowed to dictate actions.

Blame was thrown on and at everythingand the east, as usual, took no responsibility for what had happened. Eventually, Bradford came up with the naive notion that the east could form and run their own union to mitigate the Nic.

And so here we are, almost two years later. NO progress on the contract. The east still living with LOA 93. The Nic accepted by the company, and an appeal that's about to shut out any hope an east pilot might still have of wiping away the award.

And the east still continues to portray itself as the victim. The victim of a senile arbitrator, a biased judge, a corrupt CEO, and greedy west pilots. They continue to fail to realize their victimizer stares back at them in the mirror.

They are their own worst enemy.

So FUNNY how you WEST pilots pull so many things OUT OF CONTEXT! I've read Gulag Archipelago. The ideology was that of SINGLE PARTY rule contrated with cooperative, rational rule on an EQUAL BASIS! Where the rights of man are trampled by the ideology of the elimination of basic human rights by the I GOT I MINE CROWD and I WANT YOURS TOO!. (nutshell) Don't tell me this book is your "new bible"? Pilot's couldn't read past the preface on this one. Just like YOU! Take the TIME to read the book....you just might learn something.

Here is the Cliff's note's, FULL passage:

"To do evil a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good . . . Ideology—that is what gives evildoing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination. That is the social theory which helps to make his acts seem good instead of bad in his own and others’ eyes, so that he won’t hear reproaches and curses but will receive praise and honors. That was how the agents of the Inquisition fortified their wills: by invoking Christianity; the conquerors of foreign lands, by extolling the grandeur of their Motherland; the colonizers, by civilization; the Nazis, by race, and the Jacobins (early and late), by equality, brotherhood, and the happiness of future generations. — Alexandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago.

Hardly the EVIL East pilots. Your comparion pales to the horrors he describes of those taking place in a gulag. You have a long way to go in understanding ideology. You may wish to go back to school.


But here it comes to the crux of the West pilot argument: EAST PILOTS ARE EVIL!

Let's set one FACT straight: THE ONLY COMMODITY AN EMPLOYEE HAS TO NEGOTIATE WITH THEIR EMPLOYER OVER IS THEIR TIME. IF YOU HAVE NO TIME TO TRADE, THEY HAVE NO MONEY TO PAY.

IF YOU HAVE NO TIME SERVED, YOU HAVE NO TIME REGOGNIZED.

WEST PILOTS WANT MORE THAN EAST PILOTS, THATS IDEOLOGY THAT'S EVIL.

DOH has ALWAYS BEEN a fundamentally recognized UNION PREMISE. EQUAL RECOGNITION FOR TIME SERVED NOW, NOT WHAT MAY BE SERVED IN THE FUTURE.

This "EVIL" Ideology contrasts sharply with principle of YOU GET RECOGNIZED FOR THE YEARS OF SERVICE YOU WORKED WITH THE SAME COMPANY.

The former Piedmont pilots like Jim and the West pilots ooze the "I got mine" mentallity of career expectations AND "PROMISES". THAT IDEOLOGY proves to every person reading these pilot forums that maybe having robots in the cockpit is not such a bad idea. After all, pilots are the cause of the majority of airplane accidents and fly past their destinations.

At least we have mirrors. You may want to invest in one, yourself.

 

[Freighterguynow]

I think the only way to make USAPA work is if you elect and appoint an equal number of east & west pilots in key positions. Perhaps alternate an east, then a west pilot in the president seat and the same for the VP seat, etc. Further, we have got to change the CBL's to reflect equal representation of all pilots and pilot bases.

1/3 of the pilot group gets just that - 1/3rd of the vote.

Not 50%.

If you want 50% you can develop a compromise with 20% of the East.

That's the way a democracy works.

 

[Hawkhunter]

After Dave's goat video your commentary on his character doesn't carry much weight. If he were to apologize to all US
Airways pilots for that embarrassing display maybe I could support him, but not now.

Dont forget his postings on the ALPA site. He was the one who wanted to start the "clickers" and called the East scabs. Dont forget postings to other airlines asking them to deny the East jumpseats. Thats the guy I want in there, I am sure he would represent the East. Try again Westies.

 

[Metroyet]

Dont forget his postings on the ALPA site. He was the one who wanted to start the "clickers" and called the East scabs.

And....??

 

[nic4us]

1/3 of the pilot group gets just that - 1/3rd of the vote.

Not 50%.

If you want 50% you can develop a compromise with 20% of the East.

That's the way a democracy works.

Yes, and under usapa West gets how many reps on the BPR? Even though we have 1/3 of the pilots.

That is not how a democracy works.

If all the West had to do was get a compromise from 20% of the east pilots, the Cactus 18 suit would have been droped, and possibly there would have been no appeal to Wake, or even a need for Wake in the first place.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Yes, and under usapa West gets how many reps on the BPR? Even though we have 1/3 of the pilots.

That is not how a democracy works.

If all the West had to do was get a compromise from 20% of the east pilots, the Cactus 18 suit would have been droped, and possibly there would have been no appeal to Wake, or even a need for Wake in the first place.

Out of 33 posts in this thread, 22 are from the West and 11 from the East. That goes to ad credence to my post in the last thread.

 

[Hawkhunter]

And....??

Do you really want to go there? How many Wien Air guys are left? How many of you have been down under. Even your own guys think he is nuts. You talk about how we need to all get along then ,we dont need a East hater like Him and you. You guys crack me up. Try again Westies.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Out of 33 posts in this thread, 22 are from the West and 11 from the East. That goes to ad credence to my post in the last thread.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Out of 33 posts in this thread, 22 are from the West and 11 from the East. That goes to ad credence to my post in the last thread.

There’s a much bigger population of “west supportersâ€￾ than there are of “east supportersâ€￾ to draw comments from:
East supporters:
1) East pilots
2) East pilots’ wives
3) Some east flight attendants
West supporters:
1) West pilots
2) Some east pilots
3) OAL pilots
4) Current and former US/HP employees who would like to see this resolved
5) Company management (already accepted the NIC)
6) The ALPA Arbitration Board assigned to the US/HP Pilot Seniority Integration
7) A Federal District Judge
8) A Federal Jury
9) A Federal Court of Appeals (coming soon to a verdict near you)
10) Just about any casually interested party who believes that people should honor their contractual agreements

 

[BoeingBoy]

Out of 33 posts in this thread, 22 are from the West and 11 from the East.

So you're saying Richard, who post started this new thread, is for the West?

Jim

 

[end_of_alpa]

There’s a much bigger population of “west supportersâ€￾ than there are of “east supportersâ€￾ to draw comments from:
East supporters:
1) East pilots
2) East pilots’ wives
3) Some east flight attendants
West supporters:
1) West pilots
2) Some east pilots
3) OAL pilots
4) Current and former US/HP employees who would like to see this resolved
5) Company management (already accepted the NIC)
6) The ALPA Arbitration Board assigned to the US/HP Pilot Seniority Integration
7) A Federal District Judge
8) A Federal Jury
9) A Federal Court of Appeals (coming soon to a verdict near you)
10) Just about any casually interested party who believes that people should honor their contractual agreements

And the only ones that matter are the ones that VOTE!

And the only ones that scream the loudest are the ones that post at cactuspilot.com and HERE.

The overwhelming silent majority of East pilots don't even bother to stop here.

I just do it for the laughs!!!

 

[HPDriver]

So FUNNY how you WEST pilots pull so many things OUT OF CONTEXT! I've read Gulag Archipelago. The ideology was that of SINGLE PARTY rule contrated with cooperative, rational rule on an EQUAL BASIS! Where the rights of man are trampled by the ideology of the elimination of basic human rights by the I GOT I MINE CROWD and I WANT YOURS TOO!. (nutshell) Don't tell me this book is your "new bible"? Pilot's couldn't read past the preface on this one. Just like YOU! Take the TIME to read the book....you just might learn something.

Here is the Cliff's note's, FULL passage:

"To do evil a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good . . . Ideology—that is what gives evildoing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination. That is the social theory which helps to make his acts seem good instead of bad in his own and others’ eyes, so that he won’t hear reproaches and curses but will receive praise and honors. That was how the agents of the Inquisition fortified their wills: by invoking Christianity; the conquerors of foreign lands, by extolling the grandeur of their Motherland; the colonizers, by civilization; the Nazis, by race, and the Jacobins (early and late), by equality, brotherhood, and the happiness of future generations. — Alexandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago.

Hardly the EVIL East pilots. Your comparion pales to the horrors he describes of those taking place in a gulag. You have a long way to go in understanding ideology. You may wish to go back to school.


But here it comes to the crux of the West pilot argument: EAST PILOTS ARE EVIL!

Let's set one FACT straight: THE ONLY COMMODITY AN EMPLOYEE HAS TO NEGOTIATE WITH THEIR EMPLOYER OVER IS THEIR TIME. IF YOU HAVE NO TIME TO TRADE, THEY HAVE NO MONEY TO PAY.

IF YOU HAVE NO TIME SERVED, YOU HAVE NO TIME REGOGNIZED.

WEST PILOTS WANT MORE THAN EAST PILOTS, THATS IDEOLOGY THAT'S EVIL.

DOH has ALWAYS BEEN a fundamentally recognized UNION PREMISE. EQUAL RECOGNITION FOR TIME SERVED NOW, NOT WHAT MAY BE SERVED IN THE FUTURE.

This "EVIL" Ideology contrasts sharply with principle of YOU GET RECOGNIZED FOR THE YEARS OF SERVICE YOU WORKED WITH THE SAME COMPANY.

The former Piedmont pilots like Jim and the West pilots ooze the "I got mine" mentallity of career expectations AND "PROMISES". THAT IDEOLOGY proves to every person reading these pilot forums that maybe having robots in the cockpit is not such a bad idea. After all, pilots are the cause of the majority of airplane accidents and fly past their destinations.

At least we have mirrors. You may want to invest in one, yourself.

That passage is quite apropos in describing the east mentality.

It's funny listening to you try to portray yourself as the victim when, in reality, everything you wrote describes YOU!

Since you're in a Cliff Notes mood, I've got some for you:

1. East pilots' careers in retrograde. Many FO's will never see the left seat again and are, instead, flying RJ's.

2. Merger is announced and east pilots' see this as an opportunity to reverse the slid their careers have taken by stealing advancement from the west.

3. This can only be done if DOH is implemented along with no fences so that east pilots may bid PHX.

4. East pilots tell west pilots they will eventually inherit the airline in a few years down the road so it all OK. They fail to promise the west pilots that an airline will actually be an airline to inherit.

5. East MC pulls out of merger talks and requests med/arb. Stands by DOH integration and refuses to move off position.

6. The east is handed and fair seniority list by Nicolau but refuses to accept it because it is not DOH.

7. East forms USAPA and begins to perpetually "f" things up over and over.


And there you have it. The east's entitlement attitude and hubris have once again bit them in the ass.

You WERE recognized for your years of service at AAA just as I was at AWA. Those years were then combined in a list that equally recognized both sides. Just because your GREED was NOT SATIATED, doesn't mean the list isn't fair.

It is. Parker has it. The law recognizes it. It's not going anywhere, EVER!

That ideology that I referred to that the east uses to justify is unlawful activities is DOH. And DOH was NOT used with DAL/NWA so your "DOH has ALWAYS BEEN a fundamentally recognized UNION PREMISE" is a FALSE premise.

COMMENT DELETED BY MODERATOR- SEE PM