Amazing as well how USAPA has become more like ALPA than ALPA.
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US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/6- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!
- Thread starter Richard
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cactusboy53
Veteran
- May 9, 2007
- 2,649
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If that's true, then it's "another win for USAPA"!! Three cheers for USAPA!!
cactusboy53
Veteran
- May 9, 2007
- 2,649
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????? You have got to be kidding! Dave is simply trying to get someone ....anyone of the west cadre in to a position in USAPA. Our goal is to MAKE USAPA a true union that represents ALL US Airways pilots (as they advertise). Dave is a straight shooter and will never sell out ANY US Airways pilot if we join forces and move forward.
This union should cost 1/2 of what we are paying if we would move together as a single group toward a single new contract. Instead, "we" are wasting MILLIONS of dollars on HOPELESS, FRUITLESS, POINTLESS litigation. The winner you ask? SSM&P......no one else.
If you wish to join our ranks and move forward, join us at: www.cactuspilot.com If you are bitter and inconsolable, then keep doing what you are doing (posting things like "you'll never get a joint contract with the Nic" and "I'm a captain in the 517 and I still won't ever vote in a joint contract".....etc.
Phoenix
Veteran
- Apr 16, 2003
- 8,584
- 7,430
Yeah, that's what I hear about Governor Palin too. She quit an elected position and left her constituents holding the bag. She will never be able to gain the confidence of enough of the electorate to regain an elected position. Sure, she will always be able to garner some noise in the media and will have her ardent supporters that will sing her praises to no end, but she can't change the fact that she quit her elected post. It doesn't matter how mean people were being or how hard it was for her to get her way. Wahh. She won't be elected when there are plenty of other talented people to fill the bill, people who haven't proven they are a gamble, might quit, might not. Sure, let's buy her a beer, now or at anytime, and tell her how great a job she did, but a beer is different than tossing a vote. If she runs she'll just be a third party spoiler.
cactusboy53
Veteran
- May 9, 2007
- 2,649
- 7,407
???? You're killin' me, dude. I was making commentary on Dave's character, and how he would represent all US Airways pilots. Dave can get a bit over zealous, but he is a true pilot advocate. How exactly did that translate to Sarah Palin? That argument aside, are you telling me that I can not look forward to a Palin-Coulter Republican ticket in 2012 (if the end of the world has not occurred yet)??
Waketurbulence
Advanced
I've seen nothing from D. C. that indicates he is a true advocate for ALL usairways piolts. Until he comes out and publicly states that it's time to mend fences with the west, and that he will support the Nic and try to move this group forward as ONE, he's just another leopard with different spots.
lynyrdskynyrd
Veteran
- Apr 22, 2005
- 1,182
- 558
Somehow I think DC and DS are being mixed together, and there is some misunderstanding going on. Either that or I missed something, which is entirely possible. It looks to me like Cactus boy is talking DS and Phoenix is talking DC.
cactusboy53
Veteran
- May 9, 2007
- 2,649
- 7,407
Lynyrd..
You of course are right. I was referring to Captain Dave S. out of Phoenix. I apologize for the confusion. Dave C's recent activity is interesting to say the least, but considering his track record out of the PHL ALPA office and ALPA then placing the PHL ALPA office in trusteeship leads me to believe that he is NOT the leader that we need in USAPA.
I think the only way to make USAPA work is if you elect and appoint an equal number of east & west pilots in key positions. Perhaps alternate an east, then a west pilot in the president seat and the same for the VP seat, etc. Further, we have got to change the CBL's to reflect equal representation of all pilots and pilot bases. Once we have done that, we can march to the same tune. If we fail to do so, we are doomed to continue down the path that is presently set before us. For some, that path will possibly cost some individuals serious assessments.
The choice is up to each of us. Oppose, lurk, or ignore all together....then you stay on path. Join us at: www.cactuspilot.com to make a change.
I was reading a bit of Solzhenitsyn and came across this bit which reminded me a lot of the east:
To do evil a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good . . . Ideology—that is what gives evildoing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination.
The ideology, in this case, is DOH. And I'll admit that this is a bit exaggerated, but the idea is fairly sound.
At the time of the merger announcement, we had east pilots whose careers were in full retrograde and a significant number of FO who would never see the left seat again. The merger reopened an opportunity for those FO's to upgrade and it was assumed that America West would play nice and allow it to happen. After all, the east had "done this before" and they'd be the ones to show us how it was done.
But it didn't go as planned.
The east left a seven year fence on the table to go to med/arb to pursue their DOH agenda. But why, you ask, would they leave a fence on the table?
Fences work both ways in that they would have kept the west out of east domiciles, but would have also kept east pilots out of PHX. That was unacceptable because it would have closed that upgrade door many of the east FO's were hoping for with this merger. If they couldn't upgrade out east, the out west would be a fine second choice. Heck, some easties came out just after the merger was announce to look at houses in Scottsdale and Anthem.
And so began to all or nothing push toward DOH. The east MC was mandated by their MEC to come back with nothing less under threat of recall. And when Nicolau can back with a relative seniority integration, the wheels came off in the east and emotion was allowed to dictate actions.
Blame was thrown on and at everythingand the east, as usual, took no responsibility for what had happened. Eventually, Bradford came up with the naive notion that the east could form and run their own union to mitigate the Nic.
And so here we are, almost two years later. NO progress on the contract. The east still living with LOA 93. The Nic accepted by the company, and an appeal that's about to shut out any hope an east pilot might still have of wiping away the award.
And the east still continues to portray itself as the victim. The victim of a senile arbitrator, a biased judge, a corrupt CEO, and greedy west pilots. They continue to fail to realize their victimizer stares back at them in the mirror.
They are their own worst enemy.
To do evil a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good . . . Ideology—that is what gives evildoing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination.
The ideology, in this case, is DOH. And I'll admit that this is a bit exaggerated, but the idea is fairly sound.
At the time of the merger announcement, we had east pilots whose careers were in full retrograde and a significant number of FO who would never see the left seat again. The merger reopened an opportunity for those FO's to upgrade and it was assumed that America West would play nice and allow it to happen. After all, the east had "done this before" and they'd be the ones to show us how it was done.
But it didn't go as planned.
The east left a seven year fence on the table to go to med/arb to pursue their DOH agenda. But why, you ask, would they leave a fence on the table?
Fences work both ways in that they would have kept the west out of east domiciles, but would have also kept east pilots out of PHX. That was unacceptable because it would have closed that upgrade door many of the east FO's were hoping for with this merger. If they couldn't upgrade out east, the out west would be a fine second choice. Heck, some easties came out just after the merger was announce to look at houses in Scottsdale and Anthem.
And so began to all or nothing push toward DOH. The east MC was mandated by their MEC to come back with nothing less under threat of recall. And when Nicolau can back with a relative seniority integration, the wheels came off in the east and emotion was allowed to dictate actions.
Blame was thrown on and at everythingand the east, as usual, took no responsibility for what had happened. Eventually, Bradford came up with the naive notion that the east could form and run their own union to mitigate the Nic.
And so here we are, almost two years later. NO progress on the contract. The east still living with LOA 93. The Nic accepted by the company, and an appeal that's about to shut out any hope an east pilot might still have of wiping away the award.
And the east still continues to portray itself as the victim. The victim of a senile arbitrator, a biased judge, a corrupt CEO, and greedy west pilots. They continue to fail to realize their victimizer stares back at them in the mirror.
They are their own worst enemy.
???? You're killin' me, dude. I was making commentary on Dave's character, and how he would represent all US Airways pilots. Dave can get a bit over zealous, but he is a true pilot advocate. How exactly did that translate to Sarah Palin? That argument aside, are you telling me that I can not look forward to a Palin-Coulter Republican ticket in 2012 (if the end of the world has not occurred yet)??
After Dave's goat video your commentary on his character doesn't carry much weight. If he were to apologize to all US
Airways pilots for that embarrassing display maybe I could support him, but not now.
Ardenian
Advanced
Dear Board and Officers:
It has come to my attention that Cleary has attempted to appoint Jeff Davis to an ad hoc committee, (of one!), for the purpose of usurping duties that are constitutionally specific to the elected office of the Executive Vice President.
Let me simply say that Article X was designed to allow the President latitude and flexibility to appoint a committee to undertake projects that “pop up†unexpectedly. The notion that an ad hoc committee should be negotiating the terms of employment of staff falls well outside the bounds of reasonableness, on several accounts.
Any work that an ad hoc committee undertakes is intended to come under the direct supervision of the Board and ultimately should be subject to a vote from the rank and file, in one way or another. An example would be the work of the original ad hoc committee of Rich Wargin and company, whose work on the Constitution and By Laws was subject to ratification, because it was of major importance to the pilots. Minor items should at least be supervised by the Board.
Article III, Sect. 8, Para. D.2 makes it clear that the EVP has a constitutional responsibility and a fiduciary one as well. I submit that this is not a job for an ad hoc committee, especially a committee of one! It indirectly affects the pilots as dues money is at play.
Also, since there are charges of malfeasance pending against Mike Cleary for actions that are remarkably similar this one, it is indeed a politically arrogant and tone-deaf Board who would once again allow King Mike free reign to play clever with the intent of the C&BL.
Appointing a former member of Cleary’s Slate of Candidates is another sign that Mike has got this Board in his pocket. If you all lack the insight to understand that is another power grab and one that will be interpreted by the pilots as empire building by the President, with the Board’s tacit approval, then it is time for USAPA to come to an end.
There is no reason to rush to appoint Jeff Davis or and other political puppet to a committee whose Constitutional authority to do an elected Officer’s job is in very serious doubt. The necessary office staff are in place and have been for some time.
Gentlemen, here we go again. Only this time, if you don’t stand up for what is right, I believe you will hear loud and clear, from the line pilots,
Fraternally,
Ardenian
It has come to my attention that Cleary has attempted to appoint Jeff Davis to an ad hoc committee, (of one!), for the purpose of usurping duties that are constitutionally specific to the elected office of the Executive Vice President.
Let me simply say that Article X was designed to allow the President latitude and flexibility to appoint a committee to undertake projects that “pop up†unexpectedly. The notion that an ad hoc committee should be negotiating the terms of employment of staff falls well outside the bounds of reasonableness, on several accounts.
Any work that an ad hoc committee undertakes is intended to come under the direct supervision of the Board and ultimately should be subject to a vote from the rank and file, in one way or another. An example would be the work of the original ad hoc committee of Rich Wargin and company, whose work on the Constitution and By Laws was subject to ratification, because it was of major importance to the pilots. Minor items should at least be supervised by the Board.
Article III, Sect. 8, Para. D.2 makes it clear that the EVP has a constitutional responsibility and a fiduciary one as well. I submit that this is not a job for an ad hoc committee, especially a committee of one! It indirectly affects the pilots as dues money is at play.
Also, since there are charges of malfeasance pending against Mike Cleary for actions that are remarkably similar this one, it is indeed a politically arrogant and tone-deaf Board who would once again allow King Mike free reign to play clever with the intent of the C&BL.
Appointing a former member of Cleary’s Slate of Candidates is another sign that Mike has got this Board in his pocket. If you all lack the insight to understand that is another power grab and one that will be interpreted by the pilots as empire building by the President, with the Board’s tacit approval, then it is time for USAPA to come to an end.
There is no reason to rush to appoint Jeff Davis or and other political puppet to a committee whose Constitutional authority to do an elected Officer’s job is in very serious doubt. The necessary office staff are in place and have been for some time.
Gentlemen, here we go again. Only this time, if you don’t stand up for what is right, I believe you will hear loud and clear, from the line pilots,
Fraternally,
Ardenian
Ardenian
Advanced
What follows is information about which USAPA does NOT want you to know! I believe it is imperative that you DO know; you have a right to know because you pay for this union!
Regardless of where you're domiciled, USAPA was to have operated openly, honestly and transparently; to run based on founding principles which place the line pilot at the "top" of the organizational chart; where the elected Board of Pilot Representative Officers (BPR) are lawfully obligated to act as the servant of the pilots and execute policy based directly upon those wishes while acting within, protecting and enforcing our self-ratified law; and where the National Officers were to act legally and with custodial (limited) authority in executing USAPA operationally on a daily basis. In other words, the exact opposite of our predecessor and, in fact, opposite of what has been happening since the National Officer elections.
Further, all actions taken on behalf of, or within, our organization, by any member of USAPA is to be accomplished within the confines of U.S. Department of Labor law and solely with the best interest and efficiencies of the line pilots (and your dues dollar) as the fundamental basis.
Having known Dave Ciabattoni for a number of years, I will attest to the fact that he is probably the most knowledgeable, honest and hard working advocate our line pilots may have ever had. He has never betrayed a trust placed in him.
That Dave would make such serious charges (read his letter!) must not be taken lightly. These are serious charges of criminal acts. It is not surprising, therefore, that your elected "elite" don't want this information out. Indeed, I fully expect for Dave's action to be minimized as a "non-event" in typical fashion to what we have come to expect. But this is no longer about "getting along" or hiding issues for political purposes. It is about the law and how no one is above it.
Your USAPA Constitution and By-Laws contains "conflict-resolution" instruments in the form of authorities granted by you through ratification of the document.
The first level of resolution responsibility is the BPR. If they fail to adhere to, and enforce, the C&BLs (the law you ratified as the "owners" of the union), charges are filed with USAPA on an "official" level and proceed through a very specific avenue. This results in the USAPA "Appeals Board" superseding any, and all, BPR and National Officer authority by assuming jurisdiction over the conflict for judgment and final decision and action if such is required. The Appeals Board has the authority to enforce the C&BLs as it sees fit - up to, and including, recall of anyone. If the Appeals Board subsequently fails to act to enforce our C&BLs and the law, the D.O.L. will become involved!
Unquestioningly, as one member of our Appeals Board is a named co-defendant in these charges, in this instance it will require recusal: disqualification from participation on the grounds of personal involvement. Since the Appeals Board is an elected position, the resolution becomes incumbent upon the remaining members of the committee to determine the final outcome as no one may be "appointed" on a temporary basis.
The D.O.L. has little tolerance for any ongoing criminal behavior within the confines of any organization under their jurisdiction who fails to enforce the law - including our own.
Please read the attached. I find it alarming that we are progressing right back down the path of "what you don't know won't hurt you." I, for one, don't like people "glad-handing" me to avoid truth. As you'll see in his letter, Dave reminds us all of the losses we incurred when such conduct is tolerated.
You need to know what's going on and I urge you to contact your representatives directly and without delay to find out exactly why you have not been informed! (This may well be only the tip of the iceberg.)
I don't know specific details of what's been going on any more than you do. What I do know is that many people that I know and trust are now excluded from USAPA activities. This isn't what I voted to achieve. I will not endorse, or help underwrite, a small group of elitists who may be persuaded, or feel they are above, doing their jobs or respecting the law: our law!
This is no longer about politics; it's no longer about "getting along." This is about what we're paying for and the law. It's time to get involved!
Ardenian
Regardless of where you're domiciled, USAPA was to have operated openly, honestly and transparently; to run based on founding principles which place the line pilot at the "top" of the organizational chart; where the elected Board of Pilot Representative Officers (BPR) are lawfully obligated to act as the servant of the pilots and execute policy based directly upon those wishes while acting within, protecting and enforcing our self-ratified law; and where the National Officers were to act legally and with custodial (limited) authority in executing USAPA operationally on a daily basis. In other words, the exact opposite of our predecessor and, in fact, opposite of what has been happening since the National Officer elections.
Further, all actions taken on behalf of, or within, our organization, by any member of USAPA is to be accomplished within the confines of U.S. Department of Labor law and solely with the best interest and efficiencies of the line pilots (and your dues dollar) as the fundamental basis.
Having known Dave Ciabattoni for a number of years, I will attest to the fact that he is probably the most knowledgeable, honest and hard working advocate our line pilots may have ever had. He has never betrayed a trust placed in him.
That Dave would make such serious charges (read his letter!) must not be taken lightly. These are serious charges of criminal acts. It is not surprising, therefore, that your elected "elite" don't want this information out. Indeed, I fully expect for Dave's action to be minimized as a "non-event" in typical fashion to what we have come to expect. But this is no longer about "getting along" or hiding issues for political purposes. It is about the law and how no one is above it.
Your USAPA Constitution and By-Laws contains "conflict-resolution" instruments in the form of authorities granted by you through ratification of the document.
The first level of resolution responsibility is the BPR. If they fail to adhere to, and enforce, the C&BLs (the law you ratified as the "owners" of the union), charges are filed with USAPA on an "official" level and proceed through a very specific avenue. This results in the USAPA "Appeals Board" superseding any, and all, BPR and National Officer authority by assuming jurisdiction over the conflict for judgment and final decision and action if such is required. The Appeals Board has the authority to enforce the C&BLs as it sees fit - up to, and including, recall of anyone. If the Appeals Board subsequently fails to act to enforce our C&BLs and the law, the D.O.L. will become involved!
Unquestioningly, as one member of our Appeals Board is a named co-defendant in these charges, in this instance it will require recusal: disqualification from participation on the grounds of personal involvement. Since the Appeals Board is an elected position, the resolution becomes incumbent upon the remaining members of the committee to determine the final outcome as no one may be "appointed" on a temporary basis.
The D.O.L. has little tolerance for any ongoing criminal behavior within the confines of any organization under their jurisdiction who fails to enforce the law - including our own.
Please read the attached. I find it alarming that we are progressing right back down the path of "what you don't know won't hurt you." I, for one, don't like people "glad-handing" me to avoid truth. As you'll see in his letter, Dave reminds us all of the losses we incurred when such conduct is tolerated.
You need to know what's going on and I urge you to contact your representatives directly and without delay to find out exactly why you have not been informed! (This may well be only the tip of the iceberg.)
I don't know specific details of what's been going on any more than you do. What I do know is that many people that I know and trust are now excluded from USAPA activities. This isn't what I voted to achieve. I will not endorse, or help underwrite, a small group of elitists who may be persuaded, or feel they are above, doing their jobs or respecting the law: our law!
This is no longer about politics; it's no longer about "getting along." This is about what we're paying for and the law. It's time to get involved!
Ardenian
cactusboy53
Veteran
- May 9, 2007
- 2,649
- 7,407
Admittedly (as previously stated, Dave can get somewhat over zealous) the goat video was a bit much. In frustration we watched Bradford lead a band of USAPA organizers to form a "union", the sole purpose of which was to negate the final and binding seniority arbitration.
If you could get the USAPA Van to Seniority Freedom to admit to their transgressions, perhaps Dave would also apologize. What we have here is a situation that we all need to get over. We can start by electing a joint cadre of east and west pilots to makeover USAPA. We can make this happen together, BUT it will take every lurker and "head-in-the-sand" US Airways pilot to become a Member in Good Standing (MIGS) and exercise your voting rights.
The ONLY parties that have ultimately won in the past 4.5 years is LCC & SSM&P. Only we can change that as a collective body. Only when we stop pointing fingers and get past the pointless litigation will we be able to aim our will toward LCC.
What say you?
Phoenix
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- Apr 16, 2003
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