US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/6- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[BoeingBoy]

I can assure you it has not. Correct or no, the pervasive opinion on the East is that the West hubs are money losers.

Since the East posters like to quote Parker when it suits them, why not believe him when he says that PHX is profitable?

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

I have a SCOTUS related question. Is my understanding correct that the SCOTUS would more likely listen to an appeal if it involved conflicting rulings from different courts, such as the District 9th versus the Circuit 9th - whereas it would decline to hear an appeal if both lower and upper courts supported each other's ruling?

Too lazy to do the research.

I believe you are asking about the misconception that the SCOTUS will take the case because the Ninth and the Fourth circuit in the Breeger case might disagree.

Different cases different facts. Besides the SCOTUS taking a case over ripeness would be very, very, very did I say very small.

 

[Barrister]

First, I suppose if you define fair as DOH or nothing, then by your definition the award was unfair. Of course the arbitration panel wasn't bound by your personal definition of fair, rather they had to issue an award that met with the pre-agreed upon terms of the transition agreement and ALPA merger policy.

But as long as we're throwing around personal definitions of fair, I cannot conceive of a more objective and just method of integrating two separate seniority lists, especially considering the vast number of differences between the US & HP pilot groups. The new company had more planes, more routes, more pilots, more lines, etc. than either of the companies had or were likely to have prior to the merger. Each of these factors, along with a financially more stable combined airline, translates to more opportunities for the pilots to advance and progress than under their previous situations, especially as the merger successfully demonstrated in the 2006-2007 timeframe. Therefore, ratio integration is the best way to develop a new seniority list because it is all based on percentages. Save for the widebody protections for the east, a pilot who was in the 95th percentile before the NIC (5% away from the top and 95% away from the bottom) was in the 95th on the NIC. The same for every other respective position down to the furloughed east pilots who should only take a position on the new list once those actively on the list have their opportunity to work first. Setting emotions and greed aside, what could possibly be more just and fair? Certainly not DOH and certainly not anything the east proposed before binding arbitration because they didn't offer anything.

There is one tremendous flaw in your theory. This airline has not now and never will in the future seek to "grow" anything. The synergies are by pulling out capacity where they can and economies of scale, SECONDARY, to retraction. Now BB before you jump on me you know full well what I mean by this. It is not a contradictory position. Plus any growth in one's own position will be by attrition and we see how that will work under NIC.

VNIMN
NPJBo

 

[aquagreen73s]

I believe you are asking about the misconception that the SCOTUS will take the case because the Ninth and the Fourth circuit in the Breeger case might disagree.

Different cases different facts. Besides the SCOTUS taking a case over ripeness would be very, very, very did I say very small.

Breeger is an unpublished memorandum decision in support of the D's motion to dismiss. Hence, it has ZERO value as controlling or persuasive case law, either within or outside of the circuit. Ergo, there is no conflict nor can there ever be. Plus, a cursory look at Breeger quickly reveals that the decision is a product of bad advocacy coming from the plaintiffs. Case law was out there which probably would have defeated the motion to dismiss, but the plaintiff's pilot-lawyer didn't do his homework.

As I've said before, Breeger stands for little more than the proposition that pilots who are also lawyers should stick to flying airplanes.

 

[Barrister]

I can assure you it has not. Correct or no, the pervasive opinion on the East is that the West hubs are money losers.

So, in addition to the seniority award, another hurdle to a joint contract will be the thought of hoards of unemployed West pilots attempting to bid East taking jobs away from the East pilots.

That is why whether or not you WANT to bid East is irrelevent, you may not have a choice. Remember there is a 600Mil airport in PIT being used about 40% worth! And the most logical BIG cut will be PHX...IF there is a joint contract or a catastrophic event.

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

Have you read the dispatchers arbitration award? The east loves to point to that award as to why DOH should be used. Read it carefully, the reason that it went DOH was because the west dispatchers were going to lose under DOH but gain because of the better east contract. Nicolau used some of the same logic and saw that the east was going to make large gains because of the improved west contract. The award came out before the Kirby proposal. It has been testified to that the Kirby would be $100 million to the east.

It is incorrect to look at it as a loss of 5-10-15 years seniority. You are still getting your longevity pay for the number of years served. Your seniority is what you could hold. If after 15 years you were senior enough to hold furlough that is what it was worth. At AWA 15 years you were senior enough to hold mid level line holding captain.

But putting all of that aside. The Nicolau is done. The courts are not ruling on the award. The time for the east pilots to do something about that was looooong ago. The Nicolau is here to stay. If you can not accept that fact then leave.

All of the other extraneous nonsense is just that, noise. All of the gyrations with the union, Nicolau is still there. Threats of changing unions, dissolving the union, merging the union, Nicolau is still there. Dreams of some fragmentation or merger with another airline, Nicolau is still there. Uninformed speeches about where the money comes from or what the hubs will be IF, the Nicolau is still there. I will say it again. If you can not accept that the Nicolau is the seniority list for this airline than it is time to find somewhere else to work.

This line I find the most telling of everything written.


USAPA is an association not a seniority list. But either way it will be USAPA that ends up implementing the Nicolau list. Talk about poetic justice. The bargaining agent designed to eliminate the Nicolau will be the one to place it in a contract.

Yes, yes we all know how you are going to vote. We have all heard it enough times. But reality check, you are but ONE vote among many. You speak for a small segment of the east pilots. Let’s just see how a true vote comes out. Then we can see if the majority of pilots understand the facts and reality of our situation.

To answer your question. No a 10% and Nicolau not acceptable and I would vote no. However if USAPA (the east) drags this out for very long that may not be a problem. As I have said all along. The dynamics change, Parker or economics or world events will not allow a static situation. Look at the base closings, PIT, LGA, BOS, LAS the sale of 190’s. You add in there a merger, a bankruptcy, the merger of two other us carriers not us. The price of fuel spikes or falls to $30 per barrel. Another terrorists attack, another big change in FAR rest rules. All of this could change where we are today. But none of that is going to change the Nicolau award.

So continuing to wish it away or find more and more unlikely scenarios will not make it go away. So go on and on about how it should have been done how Nicolau should have done this or that. Keeping telling yourself and anyone that will listen how much you think that you lost. It matters not, there is nothing that any of us can do to change that list. As it stands now not having the Nicolau is good for me and I can continue for quite awhile like this. It would be nice to have more money but I am not desperate for the raise.

Delay all you guys want, the west and judge Wake will be waiting when the east finally figures out that we or Nicolau are not going anywhere. 6 months from now I would guess that there will be an entirely different attitude coming from the east. You all can work out why that could be.

If you have the votes you have them!!Nuff said.

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[RowUnderDCA]

At the time, Nie was looking in a rear view mirror and ignored the warning: "9-11 make make east carrer expectations appear smaller in relation to west expectations than they really are." But I'm not an expert on career expectations.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Your question isn't totally clear

My friend can answer for himself, but I understood it to be in the context of the 9th Circuit Appeals Court and PHX District Court disagreeing. For example if the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals remands because of jury instructions and USAPA still loses at the District Court retrial, would SCOTUS be more likely to accept the case?

In other words, if there's a difference of opinion within a Circuit/District is the SCOTUS more likely to accept the case. At least that's what I understood the question to mean and the context of my answer (and I mixed up Circuit/District also, I think).

I thought (or assumed) that the Appeals Courts were the primary means of resolving disagreements among the District Courts within their Circuit, while SCOTUS resolved differences between Circuits.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

That is why whether or not you WANT to bid East is irrelevent, you may not have a choice. Remember there is a 600Mil airport in PIT being used about 40% worth! And the most logical BIG cut will be PHX...IF there is a joint contract or a catastrophic event.

VNIIMN
NPJB

By what hard data do you make this statement or come to this conclusion?

If we merge with AA how long do you think CLT would hang around? Or how big would PHL be with all those competing bases on the east coast?

Just because you say it often enough does not make it true. State your case or move along.

 

[westcoastflyer]

Any informed guesses as to when the 9th Circuit will rule on this? For everyone's sake, I hope this matter is finally ended ASAP. This whole mess has been going on way too long. After the court does rule (most likely to affirm Judge Wake's ruling) it will be time for all parties to come together, put aside their emotions, and move forward for the common good of the entire pilot group.

 

[CallawayGolf]

There is one tremendous flaw in your theory. This airline has not now and never will in the future seek to "grow" anything. The synergies are by pulling out capacity where they can and economies of scale, SECONDARY, to retraction. Now BB before you jump on me you know full well what I mean by this. It is not a contradictory position. Plus any growth in one's own position will be by attrition and we see how that will work under NIC.

It's not my theory, it was the fact of the merger on 09/27/2005 which was the primary consideration the arbitration board used to issue the award. Guessing what the future may or may not hold is for stock traders and commodity brokers, not for federal arbitrators brought in to rule on the facts available to them. Of course you are looking at the situation from a 2008 & 2009 perspective which have brought havoc to all global airlines’ financial statements and route expansion plans. Do you blame the current environment on Nicolau or Parker? If so, how do you explain the global employment rates and international GDP figures tanking in the last two years? This is not a US problem or an American economy problem only. All are from suffering the global economic recession with only a few rare exceptions.

 

[BoeingBoy]

At the time, Nie was looking in a rear view mirror and ignored the warning: "9-11 make make east carrer expectations appear smaller in relation to west expectations than they really are."

The problem with that is that it wasn't just 911. The 88/89/90 hire date pilots furloughed after 911 were also furloughed in 91. Then there's the whole thing about US' prospect going forward from 2005 absent the merger - since US was out of cash, what were those prospects?

It's ironic that "career expectations" were dismissed by some on the East side during integration negotiations/arbitration, but now all you hear about is "career expectations". It's amazing how much "career expectations" matter when one side goes from staring into the abyss to all the furloughees recalled/getting airplanes/etc. What was once dismissed as out of the pilots control so should have no bearing in integration is now the holy grail and all that matters.

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

BB and HP

Two hypothetical scenarios:

The East is shot down at the 9th Circuit and decides to pursue an appeal at SCOTUS.

The West is shot down at the 9th Circuit and decides to do the same.

In scenario one, the 9th Circuit rendered the same ruling as the 9th District. In scenario two the rulings are at odds.

Which group stands a better chance of being heard at SCOTUS?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Any informed guesses as to when the 9th Circuit will rule on this? For everyone's sake, I hope this matter is finally ended ASAP. This whole mess has been going on way too long. After the court does rule (most likely to affirm Judge Wake's ruling) it will be time for all parties to come together, put aside their emotions, and move forward for the common good of the entire pilot group.

Don't hold your breath on that "come together" idea.

The guesses around here seem to say that the decision will probably come late January. I have no idea on what those guesses are based, but I think the case was fast-tracked and maybe this is the circuit court's own timeline, or history.

I really doesn't matter. If it's an "east victory," it will likely mean nothing more than an extension of the misery due to the finding that the Addington case was not ripe and Wake should not have heard it in the first place. Somewhere down the line, this whole scenario may likely be repeated.

If it's a "west win," there are still the huge hurdles of getting the company to bargain in good faith for a combined contract (they haven't done so yet.) And, if a tentative agreement does actually see the light of day, there is little likelihood that enough votes can be found to ratify it with the Nicolau award attached (despite what the west's uneducated, misguided spin is on how the east pilots "really" feel.)

"Come together?" Not in this new decade.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Don't hold your breath on that "come together" idea.


If it's a "west win," there are still the huge hurdles of getting the company to bargain in good faith for a combined contract (they haven't done so yet.) And, if a tentative agreement does actually see the light of day, there is little likelihood that enough votes can be found to ratify it with the Nicolau award attached (despite what the west's uneducated, misguided spin is on how the east pilots "really" feel.)

"Come together?" Not in this new decade.

The Kirby proposal meets the definition of a good faith offer. What has USAPA proposed, if anything? Based on your previous statement about the 30%+ pay raise proposal being mere crumbs, is USAPA asking for 2-3x current east pay rates or more? If so, who is negotiating in bad faith? If I go to an Audi dealer and offer them $10 for a $120k R8 and they say no, who is being unreasonable?