US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/6- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[USA320Pilot]

Aqua,

Aqua said: "USA320, I disagree with your conclusion - we are not hostages to the RC4/5 or whatever that is. That gang barely won a CBA election as 200 votes the other way would have sent USAPA down in flames. I understand how the USAPA founders rigged the C&BLs, but surely we can effect change if we work together. If you disagree, please explain why/how the numbers work against us and for the RC4/5 gang."

USA320Pilot comments: Aqua, RC4/5 stands for "roll call 4 or roll call 5" and represents a slang name for the East Hardliners who controlled the USAPA East MEC prior to the US Airways- America West merger. Many of these East Hardline leaders now control USAPA and are in Mike Cleary's inner circle. In fact, these type of people used over 50 "roll call" votes during East pilot contract LOA 93 negotiations to deliver a contract to the pilots that was worse than the Company's opener...in fact, much worse. The Hardliners became the first ALPA unit to provide a concession to management greater than the Caompany's "ask".

I understand your point and actually supported your conclusion until Mike Cleary took control of the union. USAPA's leaders are allegedly dishonest people who have been accused on the past of tampering elections because it appointed and controlled the Ballot Certification process and misrepresented information. The last 3 East MEC Chairman each wrote letters to the pilot group stating the RC4/5 and their supporters misrepresented information to the pilots.

If history repeats it self any attempt to recall officials or an internal effort to take control of the union will be met with election tampering, BPR C&BL and UOM changes (like last week), and communication misrepresentation for USAPA's privleged to remain in power. Just ask Dave Shoppaul. And, there are far too many people who have become non-members out of principal far too many pilots who are apathetic that will not engage in the process.

There is a growing number East pilots who have moved away from USAPA and want change. I believe once the seniority integration litigation and LOA 93/84 grievance is complete then the pilots can move on.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[hp_fa]

Okay, then. How about Nic made the mistake of trying to combine the lists of two airlines whose operating certificates were 60+ years old and 25 years old.

Does that soothe your lawyerly sensibilities in anyway?

My sensibilities were not ruffled, but your statement would be 100% true and accurate.

 

[Barrister]

If I was here to bolster the east argument in favor of evading binding arbitration, I bet I'd be welcome on this board, "skin in the game", or not.

Better to attack anyone who doesn't share your viewpoint--

You are welcome on this board anytime dude, you just disparaged a 17 year guy here by basically saying his career and company were worthless, unlike anyone at your company. Remember dude it used to take 10-15 years to check out at DAL. And due to totally inept management most of our F/O's used to BE CAPTAINS. So if you have been here or anywhere at what point do you quit. We actually had an A-330 Captain go to AirTran. Bad move. Another Senior check airman went to SW thinking U was going out of business. Good job security but will probably retire as a FO given the economy. Many guys were depressed when Braniff turned them down so they had to go to Delta instead. There are just simply too many variables and I don't think you are qualified to comment on what is happening here. But feel free share your insights.

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[End of USAPA]

You are welcome on this board anytime dude, you just disparaged a 17 year guy here by basically saying his career and company were worthless, unlike anyone at your company. Remember dude it used to take 10-15 years to check out at DAL. And due to totally inept management most of our F/O's used to BE CAPTAINS. So if you have been here or anywhere at what point do you quit. We actually had an A-330 Captain go to AirTran. Bad move. Another Senior check airman went to SW thinking U was going out of business. Good job security but will probably retire as a FO given the economy. Many guys were depressed when Braniff turned them down so they had to go to Delta instead. There are just simply too many variables and I don't think you are qualified to comment on what is happening here. But feel free share your insights.

VNIIMN
NPJB

Delta delta delta. Nothing new here. NWA got shafted, although not as bad as us. So sad for the "profession"

 

[goneflyin]

You are welcome on this board anytime dude, you just disparaged a 17 year guy here by basically saying his career and company were worthless, unlike anyone at your company. Remember dude it used to take 10-15 years to check out at DAL. And due to totally inept management most of our F/O's used to BE CAPTAINS. So if you have been here or anywhere at what point do you quit. We actually had an A-330 Captain go to AirTran. Bad move. Another Senior check airman went to SW thinking U was going out of business. Good job security but will probably retire as a FO given the economy. Many guys were depressed when Braniff turned them down so they had to go to Delta instead. There are just simply too many variables and I don't think you are qualified to comment on what is happening here. But feel free share your insights.

VNIIMN
NPJB

No, I'm not trying to say that a 17 year F/O and his career are worthless. To anyone who took it that way, I apologize. I would, however, have been in search of greener pastures if I were in their shoes. To those that stayed, I'm sure you have your reasons.

I think what you're trying to get at is that this career is a crap shoot. I agree; we don't know if we picked the right airline until we've retired.

 

[Barrister]

He was actually "doing his job" before I was even born. My understanding is that he sacrificed a leg serving in the 8thAAF, for which he has both my full respect and grattitude for his service, and, in life, is most certainly senior to me and most any/all who post here. No whimsical "arbitration" can ever take that honest and actual seniority from him. I do very much respect said seniority in life experience, but must equally respectfully note that all of us human beings are fully capable of making mistakes, sometimes small and other times enormous ones....

I'll leave the actual and overtly zealous hypocrisy to a more youthfull contngent that, by each posting, further demonstrates an utter contempt for any supposed wisdom attendant to age, any utility of actual experience, and in fact; anything that even potentially thwarts their desires for instant gratification, no matter the cost to anyone else. If Mr. Nicolau is to be respected for his wisdom, based upon his age .....ummm...where's that place the west as regarding complete hypocrisy whenever referencing the east pilot group?

Good post, it has been said that there was no finer man in the business than Ed Colodny.........problem is he had no clue how to run a 454 airplane airline in a deregulated environment, but that doesn't take away from his character. NIC is probably a fine man......he assumed we too would "just get over it". He was wrong.

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[Metroyet]

Good post, it has been said that there was no finer man in the business than Ed Colodny.........problem is he had no clue how to run a 454 airplane airline in a deregulated environment, but that doesn't take away from his character. NIC is probably a fine man......he assumed we too would "just get over it". He was wrong.

VNIIMN
NPJB

George Nicalou couldn't have cared less what you thought of his award or whether or not you'd "just get over it". If one bothered to read his award...something I'm guessing you haven't even attempted, he outlines his rational. Of the litany of considerations outlined in the award, the overall happiness of the pilot groups did not enter the fold. Your happiness is of no consequence to Nic. his award. the West. Judge Wake, the jurors, the 9th or the Company.

BTW, how many decades ago did AAA operate 454ac? Mid nineties? There are more AAA aircraft sunning themselves in the mojave than you have operating now.

YCSVNIIMNUYSA

 

[Barrister]

George Nicalou couldn't have cared less what you thought of his award or whether or not you'd "just get over it". If one bothered to read his award...something I'm guessing you haven't even attempted, he outlines his rational. Of the litany of considerations outlined in the award, the overall happiness of the pilot groups did not enter the fold. Your happiness is of no consequence to Nic. his award. the West. Judge Wake, the jurors, the 9th or the Company.

BTW, how many decades ago did AAA operate 454ac? Mid nineties? There are more AAA aircraft sunning themselves in the mojave than you have operating now.

YCSVNIIMNUYSA

Pure speculation at best but I doubt that NIC was unaware of the consequences of his own award to the U pilot group. Plus, I did read his award. He penalized the U pilots for the financial position of U with total disregard to what the U pilots gave up to keep the dog alive. Additionally, he went to great lenths to explain how we would gain 22 million a year in contract enhancements under the AWA contract. A shocking lack of understanding of the times we live in and work under. And no the retirements on the East side are not joint benefits. Yea Right. 22M per year to lose 5-10-15 -20 years of seniority. Reading his award
leads to an even clearer picture of why we fight and a joint contract better be good enough for the majority of pilots to vote for it while at the same time giving themselves a seniority/advancement death sentence. The survival of this company is NOT dependant on a joint contract. I believe it will not happen. Plus if something catastrophic happens in this business or to the US in general what do you think will happen to PHX without a joint contract. Something dramatic will need to happen to bring either or both parties to the table. You need to understand that MOST people here will take USAPA ANY day of the week vs. NIC. All of the court victories in the world will not force a joint contract. Any solution other than a doomsday scenario will take years. Do you have any good ideas other than "get over it" and "you agreed" both of those are non-starters. And food for thought. If Kirby came along and said times are tough 10% pay cut, last offer, but you get NIC. What would you do??"

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[700UW]

What are you going to do when you go through section 6 negotiations and reach an impasse and at the end of the 30 day cooling off period ends and the company imposes a CBA?

The pilots at US dont have the jewels to strike.

 

[cubfan]

What are you going to do when you go through section 6 negotiations and reach an impasse and at the end of the 30 day cooling off period ends and the company imposes a CBA?

The pilots at US dont have the jewels to strike.

That day is a long way off.......

 

[cubfan]

I have a question because I'm a bit confused on the 9th court. Is this whole appeal hearing about weather damage has been done? I'm under the understanding that the Nic is not in play as to being valid or not. If the court rules in favor of the east, no damages because nothing has happened yet, but in the future if a contract gets presented w/o Nic, at that time damages could be assessed. Or if the east wins, a contract could be presented w/o Nic.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Plus, I did read his award. He penalized the U pilots for the financial position of U with total disregard to what the U pilots gave up to keep the dog alive.

In the proceeding two sentences you contradict yourself. If you've read the award you'd know he specifically discounted each side's assessment of the financial condition of the other. As explained by Mr. Nicolau, the East's career expectations differed plus the East had more to gain from the merger than the West. That's why he ruled the way he did.

Plus if something catastrophic happens in this business or to the US in general what do you think will happen to PHX without a joint contract.

It's very amusing how some Easties fantasize that the PHX hub is a goner. You know, that "all the money is out East" mentality. Of course, the higher costs are out East as well. Keep dreaming.

 

[exB717Flyer]

I have a question because I'm a bit confused on the 9th court. Is this whole appeal hearing about weather damage has been done?

No, the appeal is only on whether Judge Wake was correct in his rulings on points of law during the liability trial.

I'm under the understanding that the Nic is not in play as to being valid or not.

The validity of the Nicolau list was never challenged in court. Judge Wake presumed it valid.

If the court rules in favor of the east, no damages because nothing has happened yet, but in the future if a contract gets presented w/o Nic, at that time damages could be assessed.

If the appellate court rules for USAPA it goes back to Judge Wake and the damages trial would likely be delayed. The Leonidas position is that damages have already occurred. It's not the slam-dunk case the DFR trial was but it will still be sporting.

 

[hp_fa]

I have a question because I'm a bit confused on the 9th court. Is this whole appeal hearing about weather damage has been done?

No. The damages part of the trial has not yet occurred. The portion of the trial in front of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has to do with the finding of liability and the permanent injunction.

If the court rules in favor of the east, no damages because nothing has happened yet, but in the future if a contract gets presented w/o Nic, at that time damages could be assessed.

The 9th has a wide latitude in what they can do. They can affirm the lower court or they can reverse and remand the case with instructions to the trial judge. If they reverse and remand the instructions to the judge can be fairly minor up to instructing him to dismiss the case (an example would be the issue of ripeness and the case not having been ripe). When, and if, the damages portion of the case occurs the damages would, in part, be the lost income to the plaintiffs from losing opportunities to stay employed, upgrade, etc.

The actual Nicolau Award is not in front of the 9th so that they can decide if it was fair or not.

 

[cubfan]

No. The damages part of the trial has not yet occurred. The portion of the trial in front of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has to do with the finding of liability and the permanent injunction.



The 9th has a wide latitude in what they can do. They can affirm the lower court or they can reverse and remand the case with instructions to the trial judge. If they reverse and remand the instructions to the judge can be fairly minor up to instructing him to dismiss the case (an example would be the issue of ripeness and the case not having been ripe). When, and if, the damages portion of the case occurs the damages would, in part, be the lost income to the plaintiffs from losing opportunities to stay employed, upgrade, etc.

The actual Nicolau Award is not in front of the 9th so that they can decide if it was fair or not.

Thanks for the reply, so if I read you correctly, liability is did USAPA start a union soley for evation of the award? Permanent injunction means any contract must contain Nic? So if east wins, we could still have a damages trial?