US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/6- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[EastUS]

Nicalau is older than you, and was doing his job when you were in grade school, so by your standards he is much wiser, and should be listened to.

Oh, wait...just more East hypocrisy....

He was actually "doing his job" before I was even born. My understanding is that he sacrificed a leg serving in the 8thAAF, for which he has both my full respect and grattitude for his service, and, in life, is most certainly senior to me and most any/all who post here. No whimsical "arbitration" can ever take that honest and actual seniority from him. I do very much respect said seniority in life experience, but must equally respectfully note that all of us human beings are fully capable of making mistakes, sometimes small and other times enormous ones....

I'll leave the actual and overtly zealous hypocrisy to a more youthfull contngent that, by each posting, further demonstrates an utter contempt for any supposed wisdom attendant to age, any utility of actual experience, and in fact; anything that even potentially thwarts their desires for instant gratification, no matter the cost to anyone else. If Mr. Nicolau is to be respected for his wisdom, based upon his age .....ummm...where's that place the west as regarding complete hypocrisy whenever referencing the east pilot group?

 

[cubfan]

Not when you have Ciabattoni, Rowe, and Woody on the job!!!

They need to be put in charge.

 

[hp_fa]

What is the rule concerning who can sign a card and/or vote for a new collective bargaining agent? Specifically, is it only MIGS or can objectors take part in that process?

 

[luvn737s]

They need to be put in charge.

A bipartisan committee equally comprised of east and west needs to convene a Constitutional Convention and re-write the C&BL's, then a new officer election needs to be held. Once the rules that disenfranchise the west are removed, more pilots would be willing to participate.

Absent that, USAPA needs to be dismantled and a new union put in it's place.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Luvn,

Luvn asked: "Do you think that if USAPA had initially crafted C&BL's that were less susceptible to corruption, that it would have still beat ALPA, or did the pilots vote for USAPA out of raw emotion, ignoring what they were actually signing up for?"

USA320Pilot comments: I believe East pilots voted for USAPA because Stephen Bradford and Lee Seham told the pilots what they wanted to hear...not the facts. ALPA President John Prater, ALPA Outside General Counsel Mike Abram, East MEC Chairman Jack Stephan, the East ALPA MEC, and the ACPC all wrote article after article describing what would happen if the pilots elected USAPA, but the majority of the East pilots treated their correspondence as junk mail because they did not want to hear the facts.

I believe this fact and apathy has permitted the East Hardliners to remain in control and fail over-and-over again.

Now that the predictions made by people like Mike Abram and ACPC members have come true USAPA and their staunch supporters do not know what to do and they have no Plan "B". In fact, I understand this very point was discussed on a East USAPA Pilots4Pilots Conference Call last week (this is a DFR issue too).

The East pilot outrage is growing and Dave Ciabattoni's letter supports what websites such as Cactus Pilot, USAPA Watch, and Unbiased Facts have said all along. I believe once the Addington/seniority integration decision(s) and LOA 93/84 pay freeze grievance is heard, and assuming they do not go in USAPA's favor, then there will be sufficent East and West pilot support to remove USAPA. Until then there are still enough people looking the other way from USAPA's misgivings to support the union until these two key issues are decided.

Meanwhile, the US Airways pilots continue to have growing new contract diminishing returns with no new contract negotiations scheduled with the Company.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

What is Woody up to these days, since his name was just brought up recently. In the past we out west would see some diatribe of Woody waxing eloquent on something or other, but we haven't seen anything for the longest time.

 

[electricjet98]

What is the rule concerning who can sign a card and/or vote for a new collective bargaining agent? Specifically, is it only MIGS or can objectors take part in that process?

Everyone votes that is , or has any possibility to return to active pilots status. So, that includes furloughees and pilots on leave. Current union membership status it not an issue.

 

[Metroyet]

CAUTION, you have entered the BS zone.

What, specifically, is BS in that article?

 

[Phoenix]

Ah once again they resort to attack the poster and not the issue.

Spam IS the issue. TASTES great...

Could some start a wave, things are boring in the stadium. Plus I'm depressed, I used to look forward to retirement, but I'm not sure it looks too exciting now. ... LESS filling. Pot, Kettle... blah blah blah.

 

[Richard]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

It is increasingly apparent that many of you have absolutely no intention of observing and respecting the rules of this board. We have warned you over and over about making personal remarks and insulting other individual members, as well as making obnoxious and inflammatory remarks, and you just ignore us and continue to berate each other.

The lack of maturity amongst a group of alleged professionals to whom the lives of thousands of people each day depend is just astounding....

Since some of you you have determined NOT to respect us and the rules of the board, and since I still have a gullible and trusting nature (and a sense of humor obviously), here's the deal.

We are reading EVERY SINGLE POST for the foreseeable future. If there is ONE more violation of board rules in this thread, the thread will be closed for a period determined by us, and NO discussion of the pilots' labor situation will be permitted anywhere on this board. Anyone starting a new thread or discussing this topic in any way will be suspended indefinitely.

I feel very badly that it has come to this, but those of you who consistently start trouble here need to GROW UP and act like adults.

Final warning--one post out of line closes this thread.....

To those who ARE observant of the rules we thank you and we apologize for this move but it has become necessary.

Thank you.

 

[Phoenix]

A bipartisan committee equally comprised of east and west needs to convene a Constitutional Convention and re-write the C&BL's, then a new officer election needs to be held. Once the rules that disenfranchise the west are removed, more pilots would be willing to participate.

Absent that, USAPA needs to be dismantled and a new union put in it's place.

There is no need for bipartisan compromises or Constitutional Conventions. I personally will not consider voting for a new union unless our very own chief of factoids and UCTs is at the pinnacle. The goat as a union mascot is something I feel strongly about but that is one item I reluctantly consider negotiable.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I really had not thought about this in this way before, but in legal terms AWA was the company that had been around the longest. US Airways, as we all know, reorganized twice between 2002 and 2005. AWA last went through reorganization in 1992. As you no doubt know when a company goes all the way through reorganization the entering company fails to exist upon exit and a new company or organization is the end result. So a compelling argument can indeed be made that AWA was the longer existing company at the time of the merger.

Okay, then. How about Nic made the mistake of trying to combine the lists of two airlines whose operating certificates were 60+ years old and 25 years old.

Does that soothe your lawyerly sensibilities in anyway?

 

[CallawayGolf]

Okay, then. How about Nic made the mistake of trying to combine the lists of two airlines whose operating certificates were 60+ years old and 25 years old.

Does that soothe your lawyerly sensibilities in anyway?

Of course it doesn’t matter how old either company was, or which one last reorganized under federal bankruptcy protection. The only relevant fact is that two separate pilot groups, represented by their lawfully elected bargaining agents, signed a transition agreement which the parties agreed to abide by. The result of that agreement was relinquishing control of the seniority integration process to arbitration board that is and was legally binding on every member of the two pilot groups for as long as they are represented by a collective bargaining agent. The Nicolau award meets the criteria that all three parties (east, west, and company) agreed to and is therefore the only valid pilot seniority list that can legally be used at the new US Airways. Wishing it would go away or that it will be revised won’t do any good. The list is the only list until the pilots elect to be unrepresented by a CBA or another merger occurs.

 

[aquagreen73s]

What is the rule concerning who can sign a card and/or vote for a new collective bargaining agent? Specifically, is it only MIGS or can objectors take part in that process?

HP, anyone on the seniority list is eligible to vote for a change in CBAs, even furloughees, medial LOAs, military LOAs, etc. EDIT: electricjet already posted the response and he nailed the answer better than I.

For a recall, only members in good standing (MIGS) can vote.

USA320, I disagree with your conclusion - we are not hostages to the RC4/5 or whatever that is. That gang barely won a CBA election as 200 votes the other way would have sent USAPA down in flames. I understand how the USAPA founders rigged the C&BLs, but surely we can effect change if we work together. If you disagree, please explain why/how the numbers work against us and for the RC4/5 gang.

 

[USA320Pilot]

HP_FA,

HP_FA said: "What is the rule concerning who can sign a card and/or vote for a new collective bargaining agent? Specifically, is it only MIGS or can objectors take part in that process?"

USA320Pilot comments: The NMB Representation Manual, Section 9.2 (page 10) states, "All individuals working regularly in the craft or class on and after the cut-off date are eligible to vote in an NMB representation election" can vote in a Representation Election.

Another words, "All employees working in the craft or class and who are employed as of the last day of the last payroll period prior to the receipt of the application by the NMB are eligible to vote in the election. Employees severing their employment relationship (e.g., by resignation, termination, retirement, death, or promotion) during the balloting period are normally removed from the list."

There is no restriction on being a Member, Non-Member, Objector, Challenger or even Active, LTD, or furloughed employees. Therefore, every pilot who is or can work at some point in the future can vote.

For more information click here.

For those who would like to read a portion of the NMB Representation Manual to learn how to elect or remove a union click here.

Regards,

USA320Pilot