US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/13- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[snapthis]

Go ahead. Name one GOOD thing that has come out of this for you.
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And, the list will remain the same until the 9th throws out Judge Wake's insane opinion. And it will.

It was a jury trial not a bench trial. So the 9th is going to throw out the Judge's opinion? That would be like a republican sitting in Kennedy's senate seat. News flash, looks like Massachusetts just elected Brown so anything is possible.

Keep hope alive!

 

[hp_fa]

Sorry HP, you just gave yourself away. How many written apologies have you seen in your illustrious legal career???? Just asking????

VNIIMN
NPJB

Two thoughts.

The first is that he asked me what I thought was fair. I responded. Also note that I said the money and apology that I thought to be fair were also to be full and final settlement of all claims, so a simple polite apology won't come back to bite USAPA in the hindquarters. It seems to me that I recently read that a firm that provides med mal insurance to doctors came to discover that in cases where the doctor/hospital apologized that settlements were significantly lower. An insurer that found out that doing a good thing, like apologize, makes sense on the bottom line.

The second is that when you ask me how many written apologies have you seen in your illustrious legal career the answer is two. But then in my illustrious career I never saw a case where RICO was alleged and it didn't even make it past a Rule 12(B)(6) motion to dismiss, in which the court must consider every fact and inference in the Complaint to be true.

 

[Captain Underpants]

There are two very likely possibilities of how this will end- 1) decertification/liquidation of USAPA resulting in at-will employment which subsequently eliminates the east/west CBAs and the NIC award, or 2) a self-help, company imposed CBA which includes the NIC and pay rates somewhere between LOA93 and Kirby.

Which one comes first and how soon that will be are the real questions.

Self-Help also eliminates the east/west CBAs and the NIC award. Once the 30 day countdown to self-help ends both the CBA and status quo obligation expire. The contract would no longer exist and both the company and the union would no longer have any contractual obligations or rights including seniority obligations or rights. The TA as well as all LOA's and agreements including any agreement to use the NIC award are null and void. No previous agreements between the company and the union could be enforced without a valid contract.

At self help the pilots could choose to either work without a contract under whatever terms and conditions the company imposes or withdraw service and negotiate entirely new agreements including seniority. The court cannot enforce a contract that does not exist, or interfere with the union right to strike and negotiate an entirely new contract. The contractual agreement to use the NIC award expires when the contract expires and the status quo period ends.

underpants.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Self-Help also eliminates the east/west CBAs and the NIC award. Once the 30 day countdown to self-help ends both the CBA and status quo obligation expire. The contract would no longer exist and both the company and the union would no longer have any contractual obligations or rights including seniority obligations or rights. The TA as well as all LOA's and agreements including any agreement to use the NIC award are null and void. No previous agreements between the company and the union could be enforced without a valid contract.

At self help the pilots could choose to either work without a contract under whatever terms and conditions the company imposes or withdraw service and negotiate entirely new agreements including seniority. The court cannot enforce a contract that does not exist, or interfere with the union right to strike and negotiate an entirely new contract. The contractual agreement to use the NIC award expires when the contract expires and the status quo period ends.

underpants.

You may be right, but my best guess is that with the federal injunction in place you may also be wrong. You can absolutely count on management to take the legally safe route and use the NIC even if there was a small chance that they wouldn't be sued for using a different seniority scheme. As long as the pilots are organized, I'm fully confident the NIC will be the list used.

 

[traderjake]

My opinion-this is the biggest abortion of a so called merger that has ever taken place in the annals of any airline.

Louis Rukeyser when asked by a Piedmont captain about the Piedmont USAir merger said this:

"What do you get when you put a drop of sewage in a glass of fine wine?

A glass of sewage."

If this merger is an abortion it's because USAir was an abortion of an airline.

 

[Atlantic]

Well, he sort of got it wrong. Piedmont was the one that served the wine to the railroad. Rember?
They were a bit player of deregulation with no control of their future.

 

[OTTER574]

Go ahead. Name one GOOD thing that has come out of this for you.

And, the list will remain the same until the 9th throws out Judge Wake's insane opinion. And it will. The same ineptitude that brought the Nic in the first place has created this deadlock, so to place credit where credit is due, IT'S ALL ALPA'S FAULT.

oldie......The more you speak the more most know how much you don't know about this case.

BTW it was a JURY TRIAL of nine that was requested by seham and usapa that found usapa GUILTY of DFR.

The 9th circuit will put Judge Wake's FINDING OF FACT's through a fine tooth comb and will come to a simular conculusion as Judge Wake's.

53 pages of the FINDING OF FACTS by a Federal Judge (Wake) is unheard of in a civil trial unless there is known damages by the defendant that is usapa.

 

[traderjake]

Well, he sort of got it wrong. Piedmont was the one that served the wine to the railroad. Rember?
They were a bit player of deregulation with no control of their future.

Piedmont lost control of it's future when they looked at buying Western before Delta and did not do it.

USAir offered the railroad a lot more money than Piedmont was worth to avoid being bought by TWA.

If someone offered to buy your house for twice what it is worth would you sell it?

The tragedy is that the banks gave them the money to do it.

 

[nycbusdriver]

just fly the damn planes already

Um. Excuse me?

Has LCC been canceling flights because of this internal dispute among the pilots? Are the pilots NOT flying "the damn planes already" and continuously?

Why not but your nose out of our business if it upsets you? Focus on your own job, your own family, your own stuff. Leave us to ours.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Failure to realize this or worse IGNOR this will quite possibly cost all EAST pilots SERIOUS COIN. You have been warned. If the notice for assessment comes in the mail, you should not be surprised.

Are you somehow missing the fact that you will have to prove actual damages to collect any "serious coin?" The Nic never could have taken effect without a joint contract, and your own witnesses testified in Wake's court that USAPA has not been delaying contract negotiations.

So, tell me, what real (not imagined) damages have you suffered while a new joint contract gets hammered out? NONE. I will concede that there is a possibility that USAPA might be liable for your attorney's fees, but that's it. And there are a lot of hoops to jump through and pitfalls to avoid before even attorney's fees can be recouped (like what the 9th has to say and what, if any, damages trial provides.)

Serious coin? I seriously doubt it. But you can keep trying to scare us into submission if it makes you feel better about it. Does it appear to you that our resolve is weakening due to your scolding? Ha!

 

[Black Swan]

There are two very likely possibilities of how this will end- 1) decertification/liquidation of USAPA resulting in at-will employment which subsequently eliminates the east/west CBAs and the NIC award, or 2) a self-help, company imposed CBA which includes the NIC and pay rates somewhere between LOA93 and Kirby.

Which one comes first and how soon that will be are the real questions.

I don't see any of these happening. You can all impose your wishes into the outcome you desire. I see NO way out of this for the Company, West or East. The legal maneuverings on each side are going to go on for a long, long time. There is not one event that can be cited that triggers an absolute conclusion. One event leads to the next, and the next........

 

[hp_fa]

HP/FA, as one who has posted numerous times for over a year that this RICO was major overkill and needed to go away, I agree with most of your post. I'd add that USAPA contributing to any money actually out-of-pocket might be worth considering for settling this out. Now the money donated by west pilots? If they really raised it, it was voluntary and I don't see USAPA doing any reimbursement on that. I think that AWAPPA, which put these guys up to their nonsense, needs to pony up as well, since the 3 of them got a freebie on this, represented by Freund on money AWAPPA raised. If you look at the unanimous BPR resolution, it didn't include any apology, but it included "non-admission" of guilt. I think 767intl has a point, it will take a lot of pressure to get all the west die-hards to accept this.

Good morning Snoop.

I do not know the ins-and-outs of finances of AWAPPA or the Cactus 18 members as it relates to paying any or all attorneys fees resulting from the RICO case. But at the risk of injuring the current comity as it exists in relation to me let me say a few things.

First is if I mentally put myself in the position of a member of the Cactus 18 and I am served with a copy of a Summons and Complaint alleging that I have committed racketeering, then I would be both PO'd and somewhat scared (because of being accused of a significant unlawful action and now having to lawyer-up and pay an unexpected bill to represent me in court because there is no pro se appearances allowed in federal court without already being a lawyer). Moving forward now that a federal court has dismissed all charges, most or all (I forget the particulars ATM) of them with prejudice and there is at least some indication that the applicable Court of Appeals is less than happy, I am now asked to settle and eat my own costs and fees? Ha! The dispassionate legal professionals are dispassionate because they are not personally involved in the case. The defendants are not dispassionate, they are PO'd over this having happened and that there was never any proof accepted by the court that any of the allegations had any factual basis. So put yourself in that mental position and tell me how you would feel.

Second, lawyers fees had to be paid. It doesn't matter where the money to defend the case came from, it still had to be paid. That fact is not reduced by any or all of the defendants being supported by friends or concerned fellow pilots, nor that AWAPPA may have used some of its funds to help one or more of the defendants. It should not matter to USAPA where the money came from or where the amount to be potentially refunded will go. USAPA should only be concerned with reimbursing the actually accrued legal fees and costs and not have any interest other than that.

I'm sure that I probably left something out, but those are my main thoughts about how I would feel and what would be my interests as a theoretical defendant in this case. Note that I never added any amounts for mental anguish, which would have decidedly occurred. From my perspective my proposed settlement was fair to both sides because neither one is going to be completely happy after this is over. (Just like the Nicolau decision.) (Sorry, the devil made me do it.)

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Are you somehow missing the fact that you will have to prove actual damages to collect any "serious coin?" The Nic never could have taken effect without a joint contract, and your own witnesses testified in Wake's court that USAPA has not been delaying contract negotiations.

So, tell me, what real (not imagined) damages have you suffered while a new joint contract gets hammered out? NONE. I will concede that there is a possibility that USAPA might be liable for your attorney's fees, but that's it. And there are a lot of hoops to jump through and pitfalls to avoid before even attorney's fees can be recouped (like what the 9th has to say and what, if any, damages trial provides.)

Serious coin? I seriously doubt it. But you can keep trying to scare us into submission if it makes you feel better about it. Does it appear to you that our resolve is weakening due to your scolding? Ha!

Most of the West pilot group have paid-up at least thrice to ensure their rightful seniority and meet union committments: ALPA Merger Committee, usapa dues, and donations to AWAPPA/C18/Suzie arb. For some, the donations part of that triad are significant. And most of the donations would have not been necessary had the east been "man" enough to join the west on the high moral ground.

Many in the West intend to recoup most of the donations we were essentially forced to contribute for our cause. Guess where the resourse for those reimbursements will be.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Go ahead. Name one GOOD thing that has come out of this for you.

And, the list will remain the same until the 9th throws out Judge Wake's insane opinion. And it will. The same ineptitude that brought the Nic in the first place has created this deadlock, so to place credit where credit is due, IT'S ALL ALPA'S FAULT.

Yeah, and Scott Brown will never win, because everyone loves Obama's health care plan.

Keep dreaming, its all you guys got.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I don't see any of these happening. You can all impose your wishes into the outcome you desire. I see NO way out of this for the Company, West or East. The legal maneuverings on each side are going to go on for a long, long time. There is not one event that can be cited that triggers an absolute conclusion. One event leads to the next, and the next........

The likely outcomes are not my wishes; they simply represent a definitive milestone event that will mark the end of the current pilot dispute. I would call implementation of a new CBA, whether it comes by vote or imposition, or the dissolution of USAPA a milestone event for both pilot groups. The old contracts will pass away and a whole new set of working conditions will be brought into existence at that moment in time. However, if you are talking about an individual’s personal feelings, they can change like the wind so there’s no point in using them to define an end.

I freely admit the other traditional outcomes are very unlikely because:
1) USAPA will continue Operation Stalemate in perpetuity (delay, delay, delay ….)

2) If east pilots will not vote yes for NIC unless pay rates are at least 3xKirby, then a CBA by MIGS ratification isn’t going to happen until west pilots have a majority (polemic caution for those planning to quote me: I’m not saying a TA with Kirby+NIC will not pass, I’m simply using east posters’ ubiquitous assertions to make my original point)

3) IMO – neither the courts nor the company will let the east redefine the binding arbitration award to put DOH in a new CBA in lieu of the NIC, so NIC will be in every TA put out to a vote. Even if the Addington class never asserts their rights again, the federal injunction will stand as a barricade to DOH for a joint CBA.

Given the above, I submit that that all of the skirmishes won or lost for either side will not change the macro situation - mainly that the NIC must be included in a new CBA and that USAPA will never put out a TA that they anticipate MIGS ratification on. So we’re back to decertification or a self-help CBA. I give a much higher probability to either of those coming to pass in the next 24 months than I do of having all sides wait for 10-20 years so that enough east hard liners are forced to retire.