US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/13- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[snapthis]

Um. Excuse me?

Has LCC been canceling flights because of this internal dispute among the pilots? Are the pilots NOT flying "the damn planes already" and continuously?

Why not but your nose out of our business if it upsets you? Focus on your own job, your own family, your own stuff. Leave us to ours.

It may not be a breakthrough but you got us to agree on something. Thanks Coke for helping us find some common ground.

 

[snapthis]

Yeah, and Scott Brown will never win, because everyone loves Obama's health care plan.

Keep dreaming, its all you guys got.

Being forced to pay USAPA to keep my job is like socialized healthcare. What am I getting for my investment? Frivolous lawsuits and a fat cat lawyer feeding off our dues? It is happy hour for someone and I am getting stuck with the bill.

 

[nic4us]

Are you somehow missing the fact that you will have to prove actual damages to collect any "serious coin?" The Nic never could have taken effect without a joint contract, and your own witnesses testified in Wake's court that USAPA has not been delaying contract negotiations.

So, tell me, what real (not imagined) damages have you suffered while a new joint contract gets hammered out? NONE. I will concede that there is a possibility that USAPA might be liable for your attorney's fees, but that's it. And there are a lot of hoops to jump through and pitfalls to avoid before even attorney's fees can be recouped (like what the 9th has to say and what, if any, damages trial provides.)

Serious coin? I seriously doubt it. But you can keep trying to scare us into submission if it makes you feel better about it. Does it appear to you that our resolve is weakening due to your scolding? Ha!

nyc,

The point is, the West is telling you, up front and in the open, we are seeking damages and attorneys fees.

Attorneys fees alone will cost each and every east pilot around $1000.

Now damages. If you lose, and do not be so certain you will not, you already have a negative jury verdict in a bifrucated trial, that would have the backing of a favorable ruling from the appelate court. For starters, take Colello's pay from aug 2008 til the end of trial in say aug 2010. 2 years. For easy math say 2x100,000. multiply by 144 out of seniority furloughs=28.8 million+3mil attorney's fees, and you are at $10,000 per each east pilot. I have not even started with displacements, failure to hold lines, missed upgrade opportunities etc. All told, you feasibly could end up holding the bag for 50 million, and that is if it is over in 8 months.

I call that serious coin.

Not saying it is going to happen, but it is a definite possibility with a pretty strong chance of happening. If you want to risk +/-$20,000/east pilot on this, all I can say is it is your money.

 

[cleardirect]

I call that serious coin.

Not saying it is going to happen, but it is a definite possibility with a pretty strong chance of happening. If you want to risk +/-$20,000/east pilot on this, all I can say is it is your money.

Throw on top of that the $20,000 - $30,000 the east is leaving on the table with a new contract.

Oh well. As you say it's their money, it's their lawyer, it's their DFR.

 

[nic4us]

Self-Help also eliminates the east/west CBAs and the NIC award. Once the 30 day countdown to self-help ends both the CBA and status quo obligation expire. The contract would no longer exist and both the company and the union would no longer have any contractual obligations or rights including seniority obligations or rights. The TA as well as all LOA's and agreements including any agreement to use the NIC award are null and void. No previous agreements between the company and the union could be enforced without a valid contract.

At self help the pilots could choose to either work without a contract under whatever terms and conditions the company imposes or withdraw service and negotiate entirely new agreements including seniority. The court cannot enforce a contract that does not exist, or interfere with the union right to strike and negotiate an entirely new contract. The contractual agreement to use the NIC award expires when the contract expires and the status quo period ends.

underpants.

underpants,

Almost all true, but you are wrong on one very important detail. The Nic does not expire. The company may no longer be held by the TA to use the Nic, however, the use of binding arbitration as the method of seniority integration was entered into between to parties, the east mec (representing the east pilot class) and the West MEC (representing the West pilot class).

So, although I no longer have a contract with the company, I still have a contract with you, and it says we use Nic. No matter how you try to, you are not weaseling out of the fact that the Nic is the seniority list for LCC. It is not a future tense scenario, it is in fact, currently the seniority list for LCC.

On top of that, I am not so sure the TA would expire anyway.

The most likely course of action for the company to take if we were released,(and I do not see that happening anyway) would be to stay in a state of status quo with seperate ops. Slowly merging what were the old contracts ( say putting you folks on PBS, and no longer paying us to deadhead) while maintaining seperate ops.

 

[CallawayGolf]

underpants,

The most likely course of action for the company to take if we were released,(and I do not see that happening anyway) would be to stay in a state of status quo with seperate ops. Slowly merging what were the old contracts ( say putting you folks on PBS, and no longer paying us to deadhead) while maintaining seperate ops.

Separate Ops? Management's position all along has been combined Ops. Why would they avoid combined Ops and/or the elimination of the minimum fleet counts if they get released to self-help? USAPA is heading towards putting management in full control of this process and the resulting CBA all because USAPA fails to accept reality and negotiate in good faith.

 

[Justme]

It may not be a breakthrough but you got us to agree on something. Thanks Coke for helping us find some common ground.

Exactly why I stop myself every time I am tempted to post on this thread. I'll continue to remain silent.

 

[nic4us]

Separate Ops? Management's position all along has been combined Ops. Why would they avoid combined Ops and/or the elimination of the minimum fleet counts if they get released to self-help? USAPA is heading towards putting management in full control of this process and the resulting CBA all because USAPA fails to accept reality and negotiate in good faith.

As I said to underpants. I am not so sure the TA goes away when released to self help.

First, the TA's duration, "will remain in effect in accordance with its terms until each of the provisions herein has been fulfilled." If we are released prior to single ops and pilot integration, those provisions have not been fulfilled.

Also, there is language in the TA regarding, emb190 rates, as not being modifiable until 2015, even under section 6, and that the neither side gives up their rights to section 6, etc... that clearly show that the TA is outside the CBAs not a LOA attachment to them.

However, I admit I could be wrong on this one. Feel free to educate me, but if anyone takes the opposite veiw, don't just tell me either side can do whatever they want during self help.

 

[cubfan]

Now damages. If you lose, and do not be so certain you will not, you already have a negative jury verdict in a bifrucated trial, that would have the backing of a favorable ruling from the appelate court. For starters, take Colello's pay from aug 2008 til the end of trial in say aug 2010. 2 years. For easy math say 2x100,000. multiply by 144 out of seniority furloughs=28.8 million+3mil attorney's fees, and you are at $10,000 per each east pilot. I have not even started with displacements, failure to hold lines, missed upgrade opportunities etc. All told, you feasibly could end up holding the bag for 50 million, and that is if it is over in 8 months.

I call that serious coin.

WOW......that is serious coin.........I sure hope they can afford it. I'll make you a deal, when Alpa cuts me a check(800,000) for my cut of MDA DFR, I'll cut you one for 20,000. No problem. Pure nonsense.

 

[CallawayGolf]

As I said to underpants. I am not so sure the TA goes away when released to self help.

First, the TA's duration, "will remain in effect in accordance with its terms until each of the provisions herein has been fulfilled." If we are released prior to single ops and pilot integration, those provisions have not been fulfilled.

Also, there is language in the TA regarding, emb190 rates, as not being modifiable until 2015, even under section 6, and that the neither side gives up their rights to section 6, etc... that clearly show that the TA is outside the CBAs not a LOA attachment to them.

However, I admit I could be wrong on this one. Feel free to educate me, but if anyone takes the opposite veiw, don't just tell me either side can do whatever they want during self help.

I would say the TA determines how the combined CBA language is drafted but that the TA sunsets once a new CBA is ratified. In other words, the new CBA must include the provisions negotiated or arbitrated per the TA, but once the CBA is in force with those provisions, it supersedes the TA which becomes superfluous to the new contract.

I don’t believe management would try, even in self-help, to avoid the NIC or other TA provisions they agreed to. However, they should be expected to include all other provisions they prefer in a new CBA since they would be writing it unilaterally. This would include combined operations, work rules, pay scales as they deem appropriate, and every other section of the contract that is currently negotiable.

Of course if USAPA is decertified or dissolved, they aren’t bound by any of it because there is no other party. Even in this scenario I would expect a ratio integration seniority scheme rather than an unmodified DOH list.

 

[nic4us]

WOW......that is serious coin.........I sure hope they can afford it. I'll make you a deal, when Alpa cuts me a check(800,000) for my cut of MDA DFR, I'll cut you one for 20,000. No problem. Pure nonsense.

Ya know, all the east v. west bs aside, I think I will take you up on this.

If ALPA pays you $800,000 or more in the MDA DFR, I pick up to 4 charities, and you make out checks for a total amount of $20,000 in donations.

Deal?

 

[cleardirect]

If we are drifting into “what ifâ€￾ territory than let’s go back to what Doug Parker said 5 years ago about seniority integration.

I was in training on the day the story broke in the news about a merger between US Airways and AWA. Doug came in for the crew news, he used to do them once a week. His tie was askew and he was looking harried because he had just arrived from DCA and the merger was public.

At that time he said that he could say very little since it was not official but he would tell us what he could. Must of what he told us that day was true. Some one asked Parker what he thought the seniority integration should be. The day the merger became public 5 years ago Parker opinion was this.

That it had to be fair. A staple of USA to the bottom of the AWA list was not fair. A straight DOH list was not fair because it was essentially a staple of AWA to the bottom of the list. What he envisioned was a relative seniority list.

He followed those statements by saying that it was between the two sides. I have also had conversations with Mr. Parker since then after the Nicolau was issued. His opinion is still that relative seniority (the Nicolau list) is the correct way to do it.

Now given those facts, if the company has a choice during self help what do you think the seniority list will look like? A DOH as Parker said a staple or an arbitrated list by a neutral third party. Not wanting to take sides I think Parker would implement the agreed to Nicolau list and move on.

Other than the self important and over stated egos of the east what possible reason would Parker have for going with DOH? Or for that matter if on the rare chance that the ninth rules in favor of usapa why would he agree to DOH? It violated his opinion of fair, what does DOH get him or the company? Don’t say labor peace that is not true.

 

[Megasnoop]

Good morning Snoop.
I do not know the ins-and-outs of finances of AWAPPA or the Cactus 18 members as it relates to paying any or all attorneys fees resulting from the RICO case. But at the risk of injuring the current comity as it exists in relation to me let me say a few things.
First is if I mentally put myself in the position of a member of the Cactus 18 and I am served with a copy of a Summons and Complaint alleging that I have committed racketeering, then I would be both PO'd and somewhat scared (because of being accused of a significant unlawful action and now having to lawyer-up and pay an unexpected bill to represent me in court because there is no pro se appearances allowed in federal court without already being a lawyer). Moving forward now that a federal court has dismissed all charges, most or all (I forget the particulars ATM) of them with prejudice and there is at least some indication that the applicable Court of Appeals is less than happy, I am now asked to settle and eat my own costs and fees? Ha! The dispassionate legal professionals are dispassionate because they are not personally involved in the case. The defendants are not dispassionate, they are PO'd over this having happened and that there was never any proof accepted by the court that any of the allegations had any factual basis. So put yourself in that mental position and tell me how you would feel.
Second, lawyers fees had to be paid. It doesn't matter where the money to defend the case came from, it still had to be paid. That fact is not reduced by any or all of the defendants being supported by friends or concerned fellow pilots, nor that AWAPPA may have used some of its funds to help one or more of the defendants. It should not matter to USAPA where the money came from or where the amount to be potentially refunded will go. USAPA should only be concerned with reimbursing the actually accrued legal fees and costs and not have any interest other than that.
I'm sure that I probably left something out, but those are my main thoughts about how I would feel and what would be my interests as a theoretical defendant in this case. Note that I never added any amounts for mental anguish, which would have decidedly occurred. From my perspective my proposed settlement was fair to both sides because neither one is going to be completely happy after this is over. (Just like the Nicolau decision.) (Sorry, the devil made me do it.)

hp_fa, I still read this board, but dont post much any more. Its become a cess pool. For your civility, I'll reply. Put yourself in the position of a new union being sabotaged (either legally or illegally, that debate will probably never be resolved) by those they had to represent. Overkill or not, USAPA had to respond. The resolution was a compromise to end this mess.

The 3 AWAPPA ring leaders aren't paying a cent. AWAPPA may or may not be sitting on money that could help the others. If West solidarity and generosity is what they claim, they raised lots of money for the 15. I don't think there's any doubt the deeds that happened actually happened. Whether they rose to the level of criminal RICO? The Federal Case looks shaky, but there is still the NC case. As USAPA found out in Addington, there is such a thing as home court advantage. An NC State court may be more home court than an NC Federal court.

From what Ferguson said in his LAS update, he's optimistic this can end with non-admissions. Too bad he's up against west posters thinking they get a retirement plan out of this. Stupid, extreme positions on both sides have dragged us into this mess. DOH, NIC, RICO, Kirby, LOA84, LIBEL, malicious persecution. It's all crap. I cant see it ending until we all get together for either a group hug or a circular firing squad. It was a unanimous vote. Ferguson explained why the West BPRs abstained, because he was named in the suit. Abstentions don't keep it from still being unanimous. Ferguson obviously agreed with the direction of the resolution. Whether the actions of the 18 was legal or not, USAPA had to put a stop to it. Ive said for over a year it was like drowning a Tse-Tse fly with a 50-gallon barrel of Raid when a fly swatter might have worked just as well. But that Tse-Tse fly carries a deadly desease. Ok, bad comparison, but my point is the disruptive actions (legal or not) needed to be stopped and they were. What Ferguson is now encouraging as a reasonable settlement is pretty much what I thought should have happened 15 months ago. I do wish USAPA had moved on this back then, but I've since found out there were other issues which they thought needed them to slow-play it. All said, Ferguson has the sense to know how this needs to end.

On attorney fees for west pilots, lets see the West actual out-of-pocket expenses, AWAPPA funds info, donations, how much AWAPPA paid for its 3 officers defense. Until you see those numbers, its hard to put a number on reimbursement, if any. That said, I think some form of reimbursement could be in order, depending on what further investigation turns up. That's a BPR call. But as long as there are those lost in lawsuit mania, its going to be a tough road.

On mental anguish, 767Itnl referenced "Duke 3." They were college kids facing their entire lives being torn apart every night on national TV, facing 20+year prison terms. All based on hiding evidence and made-up evidence. That was real mental anguish. The only one going to jail there was the Durham prosecutor. Did USAPA make up what happened? If they did, shame on them. Sue away. You deserve the money. But we all know that didn't happen. This is nothing. According to Google (your own google results may vary), the largest jury award in AZ history I could find was $600K won by an AZ rancher who had a 2-page attack ad put out against him, full of lies. The only publicity this got in AZ was what the 18 put out themselves. Mental anguish? Did any of them end up in counseling? Time to end this.

I've tried very hard in this post not to antagonize, hp_fa. Now back to a board "where everybody knows your name." Cheers!

 

[Captain Underpants]

As I said to underpants. I am not so sure the TA goes away when released to self help.

nic4us,

The TA is part of the contract and is designated as LOA 96 (Transition agreement). It is absolutely 100% established in RLA labor law that all sections and attachments to the CBA expire at self help. LOA's run concurrent to the contract. The CBA including the TA in effect becomes a blank piece of paper at self help.

The NIC award will always exist as a piece of history and so will a DOH list. The contract defines seniority and how it is used and each new contract supersedes and cancels the previous one. The injunction requiring USAPA to try to use the NIC is based on evidence that ALPA had a contractual agreement with the company to use all reasonable efforts to negotiate NIC into a new contract. Once the contractual obligations end at self help the evidence used to secure the injunction is now in effect a blank piece of paper. The courts cannot hold USAPA or the company to any obligation based on a blank contract.

The question is which prior agreements and contract terms is the company required by law to honor at self help. The answer is none. It should be obvious that if the company decided at self help to change pay rates or impose a PBS bidding system the company and the union could not be sued for failure to honor the expired contract. It should also be obvious that the company and USAPA could not be sued or forced to use the NIC award based on an expired contract agreement. It is true the NIC award does not expire but neither does DOH. What does expire and becomes unenforceable according to labor law are the agreements between ALPA and the company to use ALPA merger policy.

underpants.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Okay. So, if you are speaking for USAPA then you are saying that USAPA’s position is intransigence in current negotiations, which include NIC, so as to force management to use self-help procedures under the RLA. Presumably this position is being taken in the extremely desperate hope that the company will go along with a DOH fantasy list and they won’t take too much more away from the east in terms of pay and work rules. Of course USAPA is supremely confident that once all of the prior agreements expire at the self-help stage that they can then strong-arm management into giving them DOH and industry-leading pay rates in order to avoid a strike of some particular flavor. This is the new strategic plan? This is what east/west pilots are paying USAPA to do as the duly elected CBA?

The reality is that If USAPA manages to push this into the self-help stage the pilots will have forfeited all negotiation and leverage with management and will receive ratio integration with shockingly low pay scales and bare minimum work rules. IMO a strike of any kind will fail due to the lack of unity and every pilot will lament not having voted for Kirby+NIC (or at least having a chance to). I’ll suggest again that decertification would be far preferable to self-help because the company would take extraordinary measures to keep the pilots content as at-will employees. Conversely, self-help will turn out very badly for both pilot groups.