US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/13- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[ThirdSeatHero]

nic4us,

The TA is part of the contract and is designated as LOA 96 (Transition agreement). It is absolutely 100% established in RLA labor law that all sections and attachments to the CBA expire at self help. LOA's run concurrent to the contract. The CBA including the TA in effect becomes a blank piece of paper at self help.

The NIC award will always exist as a piece of history and so will a DOH list. The contract defines seniority and how it is used and each new contract supersedes and cancels the previous one. The injunction requiring USAPA to try to use the NIC is based on evidence that ALPA had a contractual agreement with the company to use all reasonable efforts to negotiate NIC into a new contract. Once the contractual obligations end at self help the evidence used to secure the injunction is now in effect a blank piece of paper. The courts cannot hold USAPA or the company to any obligation based on a blank contract.

The question is which prior agreements and contract terms is the company required by law to honor at self help. The answer is none. It should be obvious that if the company decided at self help to change pay rates or impose a PBS bidding system the company and the union could not be sued for failure to honor the expired contract. It should also be obvious that the company and USAPA could not be sued or forced to use the NIC award based on an expired contract agreement. It is true the NIC award does not expire but neither does DOH. What does expire and becomes unenforceable according to labor law are the agreements between ALPA and the company to use ALPA merger policy.

underpants.

The companys self help options you refer to aren't as wide open as you infer in your post.

While there are several lengthy pieces written by various law firms that provide intricate detail on the subject, in the interest of brevity, the NMB website provides some Q&A which addresses the issue.

NMB FAQ

24. Q: What if no agreement is reached during the 30-day cooling off period?

A: If no agreement is reached by the end of the 30-day cooling off period, the parties are free to exercise "self-help." This means that the Union is free to strike or engage in other activity, and the Carrier is free to impose its last best offer or temporarily cease operations or engage in other self-help activity, unless a PEB is created.


Up to this point, considering everything I've read both here and through other sources, I don't see USAirways putting a DOH seniority list in any offer let alone a "Last Best Offer".

JMHO

 

[nic4us]

It is true the NIC award does not expire but neither does DOH.

You and I agree, the Nic does not expire. As I say, there is a contract between the two parties, east pilots and West pilots, outside the TA, the company and ALPA, to use the results of the Nic arbitration. So bottom line is it is not going away, as long as there are east and west pilots still employed at LCC, their seniority is according to the Nic.

DOH does not expire, but has never been a contractual method of integration. There is no contract anywhere that says anything about DOH integration. Nothing has or ever existed calling for DOH, so there is nothing to expire. DOH is non-existent in the terms of LCC seniority.

There is on the otherhand a company letter entitled "joint statement of labor principles" which advocates for a relative seniority integration, and in fact says schemes such as usapa's DOH proposal are in fact in violation against Allegeny Mohawk and ALPA merger policy, as they violate a "fair and equitable" type of solution. They call what usapa is trying to do "unacceptable and unconscionable". So do not hold your breath waiting for the company to institute the DOH job theft, just because we have been released by the NMB.

 

[cleardirect]

The companys self help options you refer to aren't as wide open as you infer in your post.

While there are several lengthy pieces written by various law firms that provide intricate detail on the subject, in the interest of brevity, the NMB website provides some Q&A which addresses the issue.

NMB FAQ

24. Q: What if no agreement is reached during the 30-day cooling off period?

A: If no agreement is reached by the end of the 30-day cooling off period, the parties are free to exercise "self-help." This means that the Union is free to strike or engage in other activity, and the Carrier is free to impose its last best offer or temporarily cease operations or engage in other self-help activity, unless a PEB is created.


Up to this point, considering everything I've read both here and through other sources, I don't see USAirways putting a DOH seniority list in any offer let alone a "Last Best Offer".

JMHO

Thank you for clearing up that little error.

Interesting how reading the facts can change ones understanding.

 

[Captain Underpants]

Up to this point, considering everything I've read both here and through other sources, I don't see USAirways putting a DOH seniority list in any offer let alone a "Last Best Offer".

Yes I agree. Both the CEO and President have told me they don't think either DOH or NIC is fair and would prefer a compromise somewhere in between.

The seniority problem would be really quite simple for management to fix. They could simply impose a list halfway between DOH and NIC or use NIC for PHX pilots and DOH for East bases. They could also use DOH for bidding schedule and NIC for bidding positions or DOH or NIC with a 20 year fence. Another option would be a dynamic list using NIC and adjusting seniority monthly for actual attrition. A strike could be easily avoided with a fair industry standard contract including a compromised seniority integration agreeable to both sides.

It is only us pilots who are too stubborn and knuckle-headed to fix the problem.

underpants

 

[nic4us]

Mental anguish? Did any of them end up in counseling? Time to end this.

Snoop,

I know you have advocated for the dropping of this suit for a long time. I posted many months ago that it needed to be dropped before it was too late to drop. What I fear now, and considered this then, was if any of the defendants see an opportunity for a pot of gold, they are not going to let it go.

Whether or not anyone ended up in counseling could be of minor consequence. What usapa should pray, is that none of the defendants ended up in divorce court.

 

[cubfan]

Ya know, all the east v. west bs aside, I think I will take you up on this.

If ALPA pays you $800,000 or more in the MDA DFR, I pick up to 4 charities, and you make out checks for a total amount of $20,000 in donations.

Deal?

If they pay me $800,000 or $300,000 I'll match your charitable contributions, then fly out to PHX for delivery, throw in another 1000.00 for a kick ass party

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I don't think there's any doubt the deeds that happened actually happened. Whether they rose to the level of criminal RICO? The Federal Case looks shaky, but there is still the NC case. As USAPA found out in Addington, there is such a thing as home court advantage. An NC State court may be more home court than an NC Federal court.

Some named defendants posted on a web board about not taking east pilots on the jumpseat. The jumpseat belongs to the captain of the flight, and there are multitude of avenues to take care of that type of thing. I fail to see how such a thing qualifies as a 'deed that actually happended.' Now he's drug through the mud called a criminal and everything else, not to mention having had to personally pay for a lawyer, simply because usapa tossed him into the mix and filed the suit.

Some named defendants posted about not paying usapa dues. Well there again, that falls under section 29 and would have and did in fact sort itself out in due time. The recourse for usapa was already there, that is if said poster even followed through with not paying.

Both examples simply amount to blowing hot air on a web board, we see that every day here. Not to mention the east pilot alpa web board reaction after the nic award came out, that had plenty of internet bravado too.

Honestly, what do you expect a NC court to do with that. Sure you've got plenty of dues flowing in, you can file that, it's no big deal for usapa financially.

How would you like it if some powerful corporation came after you personally in a big way for internet smack talk at worst, accusing you of being part of a criminal racketeering ring?

Wanting it to end is admirable, and you deserve credit for that, but I'm afraid you don't entirely get it, despite wanting it to end. Usapa has done plenty to injure innocent west pilots, I don't see how anyone can condone that. If you read the complaint, you will see that none of the craziest charges usapa threw out there applied to any named defendant.

 

[cleardirect]

WOW......that is serious coin.........I sure hope they can afford it. I'll make you a deal, when Alpa cuts me a check(800,000) for my cut of MDA DFR, I'll cut you one for 20,000. No problem. Pure nonsense.

Just when does that MDA suit become ripe?

No Nicolau, no harm. No harm, no damage right. No damages, no $800,000.

I do believe that you are going to receive two checks for $10,000 each. Those will do just fine. You know bird in the hand and all.

 

[East Hole]

Forget all the legal BS. The issue is you have one group expecting to much and another group not wanting to give up too much. These groups will never come together. The bottom line is everyone better start looking for a new job!

 

[HPDriver]

The seniority problem would be really quite simple for management to fix. They could simply impose a list halfway between DOH and NIC or use NIC for PHX pilots and DOH for East bases. They could also use DOH for bidding schedule and NIC for bidding positions or DOH or NIC with a 20 year fence. Another option would be a dynamic list using NIC and adjusting seniority monthly for actual attrition. A strike could be easily avoided with a fair industry standard contract including a compromised seniority integration agreeable to both sides.

Complete nonsense.

As I've stated before, the company is NOT in the business of creating/renegotiating seniority lists.

The company has, in its possession, a list that was produced from a mutually agreed to arbitration process. That list met ALL the criteria set by the company and was subsequently accepted.

It is the ONLY combined list they recognize and it will be the only list they use. They will not adjust it, nor will they make it dynamic, nor will the impose a half-way list.

Nic will be used.

 

[A320 Driver]

Complete nonsense.

As I've stated before, the company is NOT in the business of creating/renegotiating seniority lists.

The company has, in its possession, a list that was produced from a mutually agreed to arbitration process. That list met ALL the criteria set by the company and was subsequently accepted.

It is the ONLY combined list they recognize and it will be the only list they use. They will not adjust it, nor will they make it dynamic, nor will the impose a half-way list.

Nic will be used.

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh. You are not one inch closer to the Nic than you were months ago.

Driver B)

 

[john john]

Complete nonsense.

As I've stated before, the company is NOT in the business of creating/renegotiating seniority lists.

You got that right the bargaining agent is .

 

[cubfan]

Just when does that MDA suit become ripe?

No Nicolau, no harm. No harm, no damage right. No damages, no $800,000.

I do believe that you are going to receive two checks for $10,000 each. Those will do just fine. You know bird in the hand and all.

Sorry Clear, the deal is Alpa money equals your money, no Alpa no money. The two $10,000 checks you speak of, already allocated, you know college payments, debt reduction, etc. that money is long gone. But if I get MDA DFR money, you can still come to the party.

 

[LSS]

First is if I mentally put myself in the position of a member of the Cactus 18 and I am served with a copy of a Summons and Complaint alleging that I have committed racketeering, then I would be both PO'd and somewhat scared (because of being accused of a significant unlawful action and now having to lawyer-up and pay an unexpected bill to represent me in court because there is no pro se appearances allowed in federal court without already being a lawyer).

I know that pro se appearances are permitted in Federal Court, as there were a number of pro se filings during US Air's first bankruptcy, and they were not filed by attorneys.

 

[Metroyet]

You got that right the bargaining agent is .

True. That process was complete with ALPA. USAPA tried to ignore it, got sued, and lost. The 9th won't touch it either. This is done...despite the no holds barred attempt at evasion, the fact remains that USAPA is bound by the nic. Always will be.