US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/13- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[aquagreen73s]

I sincerely hope that Oldie reflects a majority of the east pilots, as it's his kind of mindset which has yielded so many opportunities for us.

 

[CallawayGolf]

This statement is one that takes neither position. My opinion-this is the biggest abortion of a so called merger that has ever taken place in the annals of any airline. I see no way out by either side. This thing is going to drag on for years. Years. If you step back for a minute, or asked any outsider, they just cannot fathom it . Nor a way out of it either. Have you ever seen a couple of those big ass black bumble bees that lock up in flight and battle it out? Then they both fall down and hit the ground.........

There are two very likely possibilities of how this will end- 1) decertification/liquidation of USAPA resulting in at-will employment which subsequently eliminates the east/west CBAs and the NIC award, or 2) a self-help, company imposed CBA which includes the NIC and pay rates somewhere between LOA93 and Kirby.

Which one comes first and how soon that will be are the real questions.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

To the east


What does binding mean to you?

What does it mean when you sign an agreement?

If you want others to play by the rules, you have to do it also.....

 

[Barrister]

You're welcome. I really do try and be fair-minded even if some East folks think they see my photo in the dictionary next to definition of "attack dog".



Mr. Fair-Minded (me) thinks that a fair settlement at this point in time would be for USAPA to pay all the RICO-related attorneys fees and costs of the defendants for the trail court and appellate court proceedings, as well as a personal written apology to every defendant. If the settlement were to be quickly negotiated and ratified by the defendants the case could potentially be dismissed before any appellate ruling is handed down and keep that potentially embarrassing decision from ever seeing the light of day. The defendants would accept the payout and apology as full and final settlement of any potential claim they might have that accrued from the Cactus 18 case. (You did ask what I thought, correct?)

As for the Cleary control issue, lets just agree to disagree.

p.s. - I wrote this before seeing Aquagreen's post with the proposed language of a dismissal. When I read and respond to posts I generally start with whatever posts I had last read and go from there. If I respond to a post I do it without reading additional downstream posts so what I wrote is what I thought without knowing of the language that Aquagreen referred to in his subsequent post.

Sorry HP, you just gave yourself away. How many written apologies have you seen in your illustrious legal career???? Just asking????

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[snapthis]

This statement is one that takes neither position. My opinion-this is the biggest abortion of a so called merger that has ever taken place in the annals of any airline. I see no way out by either side. This thing is going to drag on for years. Years. If you step back for a minute, or asked any outsider, they just cannot fathom it . Nor a way out of it either. Have you ever seen a couple of those big ass black bumble bees that lock up in flight and battle it out? Then they both fall down and hit the ground.........

Parker should have let US Air die instead of dumping this mess in our laps. Time to clean house and throw the trash out.

 

[cokeorsprite]

really guys, this is getting old. as pros that you are, you cannot come up to some sort of agreement. its been how long now and the rest of the work groups are getting sick of it. just fly the damn planes already

 

[Megasnoop]

Roger that. They haven't been very shy about advertising their obvious advantage at being able to throw untold millions of dues money at malicious lawsuits and frivolous filings. The Cactus 18 fellas have had to shoulder the entire cost of their defense on their own, and they are doing this against the USAPA dues collection machine. I can't imagine any jury having anything other than total disgust over USAPA's actions regarding the RICO. It wasn't even a colorable claim, and it took a federal judge to tell them that in plain language. Yet what do they do? Appeal and cost the innocent defendants more money. USAPA and those on the east who supported the RICO have really set a new low in treachery. 2010 is the year where all that bad karma comes back something fierce, and there won't be a single pilot outside of the east that won't be cheering.

Ill have to disagree, aqua. 3 of the 18, McAlvena, Vasin and Blatino, got AWAPPA funds to pay their attorney fees. As I remember, you had a fund raiser to defer the other 15's cost. Reread what HP/FA had to say about how this is normally handled.

Mr. Fair-Minded (me) thinks that a fair settlement at this point in time would be for USAPA to pay all the RICO-related attorneys fees and costs of the defendants for the trail court and appellate court proceedings, as well as a personal written apology to every defendant. If the settlement were to be quickly negotiated and ratified by the defendants the case could potentially be dismissed before any appellate ruling is handed down and keep that potentially embarrassing decision from ever seeing the light of day. The defendants would accept the payout and apology as full and final settlement of any potential claim they might have that accrued from the Cactus 18 case. (You did ask what I thought, correct?)
p.s. - I wrote this before seeing Aquagreen's post with the proposed language of a dismissal. When I read and respond to posts I generally start with whatever posts I had last read and go from there. If I respond to a post I do it without reading additional downstream posts so what I wrote is what I thought without knowing of the language that Aquagreen referred to in his subsequent post.

HP/FA, as one who has posted numerous times for over a year that this RICO was major overkill and needed to go away, I agree with most of your post. I'd add that USAPA contributing to any money actually out-of-pocket might be worth considering for settling this out. Now the money donated by west pilots? If they really raised it, it was voluntary and I don't see USAPA doing any reimbursement on that. I think that AWAPPA, which put these guys up to their nonsense, needs to pony up as well, since the 3 of them got a freebie on this, represented by Freund on money AWAPPA raised. If you look at the unanimous BPR resolution, it didn't include any apology, but it included "non-admission" of guilt. I think 767intl has a point, it will take a lot of pressure to get all the west die-hards to accept this.

Below is a copy of the resolution from the PHX domicile update. Reading the terms it sounds to me like the defendants have to agree to stop doing something which means that they had to be doing something in the first place. Opening themselves up to further charges.

Not if its agreed to, ending this mess, clear. Re-read the "no harm, no foul" language (non-admissions clause). If you can quote a public document, I guess I can quote part of it:
5) USAPA legal counsel is instructed to incorporate a non-admissions clause into the settlement agreement, subject to review and approval by the national officers, which provides that the defendants, by their execution of the settlement agreement, do not admit to any criminal or otherwise unlawful conduct.

As your own LAS BPR Rep, Addington/AOL founder Ferguson said in his update (I'll paraphrase since the board monitors don't accept limited distribution quotes), my words, except where quotes: the resolution that was unanimously approved directed both sides' attorneys to enter discussions that will put an end to this in a way "palatable" to both parties. The part of the resolution that Fergy thought was most important (I'll quote this, since it was in an open meeting, available for anyone to reprint):“... delegates to the National Officers, in their sole discretion, the good faith implementation of this resolution subject only to review by the BPR." That was Ferg's italics, not mine. In Ferg's opinion, this was the right way to go, even though the West BPRs abstained because they are either defendants or possibly could be John Doe defendants. He went on to say this was hanging over all of us and a bad obstacle in moving forward in some kind of unity. finished up saying he didn't know if this would reach a successful conclusion, but he appreciated the officers and East BPRs to put this all behind us. Go ahead, attack my summary because I left out some word or phrase. But that's what Ferguson said in his update. I son't know how you can spin it other.

BTW the first line of this resolution makes it libelous. Unlawful sabotage, remember this case was dismissed with prejudice so the court has found that the charges did not even meet the level of going to trial. Therefore it is impossible to call them unlawful.

The section quoted above says no-harm, no foul. Why can't you accept that?

Nope, millions from the leadership sounds about right. Using the legal system to bankrupt or intimidate people is against the law and should be against a lawyers sense of decency.

BK or intimate? Paying less than a $1,000 or in one case, $23 is going to BK? I didn't know times were so tough in AZ. You sound like someone with nothing at stake who wants to all of us to fail, regardless of whether a resolution benefits us all. Whatever it takes, you're out to destroy.

 

[CallawayGolf]

really guys, this is getting old. as pros that you are, you cannot come up to some sort of agreement. its been how long now and the rest of the work groups are getting sick of it. just fly the damn planes already

I’m sure most pilots actually agree with you. The problem is there is a federal court injunction ordering a pathological and narcissistic organization to do the very thing that it was formed to defy.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I sincerely hope that Oldie reflects a majority of the east pilots, as it's his kind of mindset which has yielded so many opportunities for us.

Go ahead. Name one GOOD thing that has come out of this for you.

And, the list will remain the same until the 9th throws out Judge Wake's insane opinion. And it will. The same ineptitude that brought the Nic in the first place has created this deadlock, so to place credit where credit is due, IT'S ALL ALPA'S FAULT.

 

[Barrister]

It's non-ABA which means you're wasting your time. CA lets unaccredited law school grads sit for the bar, but the pass rate is somewhere in the 5% range.

Stick to flying airplanes.


Good, because because 2010 isn't going to be too kind for the East.

Trust me, it's ripe. Have you even bothered to read any of the briefs because you certainly sound content with your willful ignorance.


That's totally fine. Get used to paying a fair amount of millions in damages as long as the West pilots are furloughed out of seniority on account of USAPA's breach. Either way is fine by us.

Can you say TA and seperate ops. Just how much money do you Westies have??

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[aquagreen73s]

Go ahead. Name one GOOD thing that has come out of this for you.

Ohhhh....the best is yet to come. We're way beyond simple and boring matters like joint contracts.

And, the list will remain the same until the 9th throws out Judge Wake's insane opinion. And it will. The same ineptitude that brought the Nic in the first place has created this deadlock, so to place credit where credit is due, IT'S ALL ALPA'S FAULT.

That's what I want to hear! But you didn't answer my question: are you representative of a majority of the East pilots?

Can you say TA and seperate ops. Just how much money do you Westies have??

VNIIMN
NPJB

Why yes! And can you say, D A M A G E S?

 

[Metroyet]

Can you say TA and seperate ops. Just how much money do you Westies have??

VNIIMN
NPJB

YCSVNIIMNUYFSA YSMF

 

[cactusboy53]

This statement is one that takes neither position. My opinion-this is the biggest abortion of a so called merger that has ever taken place in the annals of any airline. I see no way out by either side. This thing is going to drag on for years. Years. If you step back for a minute, or asked any outsider, they just cannot fathom it . Nor a way out of it either. Have you ever seen a couple of those big ass black bumble bees that lock up in flight and battle it out? Then they both fall down and hit the ground.........

Amen Swany. As I commute to and from work other airline pilots just shake their heads when I tell them where we have traveled past a final and binding award. I cite the lesson learned by way of the Delta & Northwest Airlines merger. This is a merger that the parties negotited a NEW CONTRACT before a list was agreed upon. Then they went through FINAL & BINDING ARBITRATION, and ...get thist...abided by that arbitration.

The ONLY reason that "thing" is going to drag on for years is because the AFO Club & USAPA has chosen this path. Failure to realize this or worse IGNOR this will quite possibly cost all EAST pilots SERIOUS COIN. You have been warned. If the notice for assessment comes in the mail, you should not be surprised.

 

[cleardirect]

As your own LAS BPR Rep, Addington/AOL founder Ferguson said in his update (I'll paraphrase since the board monitors don't accept limited distribution quotes), my words, except where quotes: the resolution that was unanimously approved directed both sides' attorneys to enter discussions that will put an end to this in a way "palatable" to both parties. The part of the resolution that Fergy thought was most important (I'll quote this, since it was in an open meeting, available for anyone to reprint):“... delegates to the National Officers, in their sole discretion, the good faith implementation of this resolution subject only to review by the BPR." That was Ferg's italics, not mine. In Ferg's opinion, this was the right way to go, even though the West BPRs abstained because they are either defendants or possibly could be John Doe defendants. He went on to say this was hanging over all of us and a bad obstacle in moving forward in some kind of unity. finished up saying he didn't know if this would reach a successful conclusion, but he appreciated the officers and East BPRs to put this all behind us. Go ahead, attack my summary because I left out some word or phrase. But that's what Ferguson said in his update. I son't know how you can spin it other.

Lets see was it a unanimous vote or did the west reps abstain? I agree that there should be settlement talks. There should have been settlement talks before the second round of appeal filings went out. Also as HP-FA said the defendants should be paid for their legal fees and receive an apology at a minimum. Yes this case is hanging over the group. As you can see here the east still think that the defendants did something wrong.

BK or intimate? Paying less than a $1,000 or in one case, $23 is going to BK? I didn't know times were so tough in AZ. You sound like someone with nothing at stake who wants to all of us to fail, regardless of whether a resolution benefits us all. Whatever it takes, you're out to destroy.

Read the complaint. As filed a $90 million law suit would have bankrupted most people. This was not about $1000 or $23, if it was, go to small claim court do not make a federal case out of a phone call. Not RICO. In addition throw in the lawyers fees to fight a federal case all the way across the country and an appeal. If you think this is anything more than intimidation you would be wrong.

 

[cactusboy53]

really guys, this is getting old. as pros that you are, you cannot come up to some sort of agreement. its been how long now and the rest of the work groups are getting sick of it. just fly the damn planes already

Tell me about it. Westie pilots are SICK of it and we had sue the "union" because they attempted to deliver a seniorty list based on date of hire vs. the agreed upon final and binding arbitration. We don't know how long this will last. In the mean time west pilot have faced termination if we don't pay union dues for a union that is failing to represent our pilot group and that same "union" filied RICO charges against some of our pilots (note; DISMISSED WITH PREJUCDICE, but USAPA has filed an appeal...what a stinkin' surprise!!).

Coke...if you really knew what USAPA and the die hard AFO Club were up to, you would shake your head and utter TISK TISK!!