US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/13- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[EastUS]

The West brought 120 airplanes to the merger.

What's insane is to believe that an East First Officer should be senior to the Captains flying those 120 airplanes..

As far as I'm concerned: They're completely welcome to the entire west operation unto the end of time it's self. Given the nic? = I'm a huge fan of seperate ops. Quite frankly, after all teh delightfull "fun" between the sparring groups; I'm personally fine with seperate ops regardless of even any considerations of the nic.

Ask yourself this Trader....if you've adequate time, and space available for processing a minor inquiry: WHY is it that it is solely the west contingent that's so passionately desirous of combined ops? Is it, indeed, a position taken to nobly secure their aircraft and postions out there? Again...I'm entirely fine with NO ONE from the east EVER intruding in any way, shape or form, upon their merry paradise, or taking even ANY small portion or so much as ONE of their postions or planes from them. Now then; honestly ask of the west what their intentions are regarding the east's resources. I'm listening for an answer here.....and.....to crickets chirping methinks.

Happy now?

 

[fr8tmastr]

I agree, you should fence those horrid East pilots from your 120 aircraft. Oh and by the way, similar fence for the East planes

 

[EastUS]

It's also insane after three arbitrations and a court ruling against your position not to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

In response to your edited post; I can only offer the apparently archaic notion of actual belief in one's real principles, and the observation that, imho, only a complete fool establishes his thoughts and belief structures based upon the whims of others, be they institutions or individuals. "On the most exhalted throne on earth....we are still seated on our own arse".

Your logic would have one become a communist if transplanted to china, a devout jihadist if within other "interesting" parts of this earth, and so forth. After all....their would be many court rulings and severe pressures against doing otherwise...........

 

[aquagreen73s]

Only if you also fence off your high costs, which are twice those of the West. That way we can watch your operation fail a fourth time and be unaffected by it.

 

[nic4us]

The West brought 120 airplanes to the merger.

I forget the exact numbers and not to nitpick, but as I recall the West had some 144 aircraft with firm orders on something like 28 more coming in a 24 month period.

I do know the TA calls for the minimum West fleet at the lesser of 140 aircraft, minus percantages per anum yada, yada, yada, daily utilization rate measured monthly minus 10% blah, blah, blah. Measured one year after the merger.

I could be wrong though, anyone know the exact number of hulls AWA had in the summer of 2005?

 

[nic4us]

FELLOW USAPA MEMBERS:

You obviously are not addressing me, so I will refrain from debunking your post, but will add, our situation is not a "Black Swan" as it is has none of the qualities of rarity, extreme impact, or retrospective predictability.

 

[cleardirect]

There is only one thing that has ever established order and overcome or restrained the natural human tendency of union members to devolve into grubby grabbers. ALPA couldn't resist selling out for the allure of more dues, and proved the hard way, that there is no alternative, their most self-pious efforts notwithstanding.

Here we are almost two years into usapa rule and what do we continue to hear? It is still ALPA’s fault. How much longer will the east cling to that old excuse? It must be an east thing to live in the past.

BTW have you looked at your bills from usapa? Still paying the same dues as ALPA, PLUS additional assessments. Don’t forget the possible damages. Now which association cannot resist the allure of dues?

I paid less under ALPA and got more. Before you go blaming the devil of all our ills check the facts and tell the truth.

 

[Black Swan]

You obviously are not addressing me, so I will refrain from debunking your post, but will add, our situation is not a "Black Swan" as it is has none of the qualities of rarity, extreme impact, or retrospective predictability.

So you are familiar, yet fail to fully grasp what kind of event this truly is.

 

[TheBadCat1313]

I forget the exact numbers and not to nitpick, but as I recall the West had some 144 aircraft with firm orders on something like 28 more coming in a 24 month period.

I do know the TA calls for the minimum West fleet at the lesser of 140 aircraft, minus percantages per anum yada, yada, yada, daily utilization rate measured monthly minus 10% blah, blah, blah. Measured one year after the merger.

I could be wrong though, anyone know the exact number of hulls AWA had in the summer of 2005?

I think the west brought 147 a/c to the deal. We are now at 120 and forecast to be back to 124 shortly with delieveries and one 737 coming back. The 27+/- a/c that are gone represent the 8000 hours per month of flying that transitions through PHX and LAS that has been transferred to east a/c.

One thing that seems to be largely misunderstood by the east folks is the level of stagnation that has occured out here. Since the deal was announced, there have been no upgrades, 140 downgrades, at least 200 retirements/deaths/medicals, etc and 175 +/- furloughs/LOA's. We are down from our peak of around 1900 pilots to around 1500. We are going on five years of complete stagnation/backsliding. 10% of our pilots are furloughed. All of this while watching the east recall 800+/- pilots, upgrade hundreds of captains and steal our flying because they do it cheaper.

Yes, we want the Nic in place and we want it now. It's coming, and it's coming soon. The gains from this merger have so far been 100% to the east, and it's time to share.

 

[Metroyet]

The gains from this merger have so far been 100% to the east, and it's time to share.

This is a concept that will always be totally foreign to the East. What's theirs is theirs what's yours is theirs. Period. End of discussion. Why? Because in 1983, they feel they had a premium job. Now look at them. Sad.

 

[Hate2fly]

I think the west brought 147 a/c to the deal. We are now at 120 and forecast to be back to 124 shortly with delieveries and one 737 coming back. The 27+/- a/c that are gone represent the 8000 hours per month of flying that transitions through PHX and LAS that has been transferred to east a/c.

One thing that seems to be largely misunderstood by the east folks is the level of stagnation that has occured out here. Since the deal was announced, there have been no upgrades, 140 downgrades, at least 200 retirements/deaths/medicals, etc and 175 +/- furloughs/LOA's. We are down from our peak of around 1900 pilots to around 1500. We are going on five years of complete stagnation/backsliding. 10% of our pilots are furloughed. All of this while watching the east recall 800+/- pilots, upgrade hundreds of captains and steal our flying because they do it cheaper.

Yes, we want the Nic in place and we want it now. It's coming, and it's coming soon. The gains from this merger have so far been 100% to the east, and it's time to share.

Airline Comparison Table from AWA website 5/20/2005
AWA / US Airways
Employees (mainline) 14,300 / 23,770
Jet Aircraft (mainline) 139 / 280
Average Age (mainline) 10.7 yrs / 11.2 yrs
% Fleet Leased (mainline) Approx 95% / Approx 75%
Future Firm Orders (mainline) 22 / 29
Operating Revenues $2.2 billion / $7.1 billion

Hate

 

[nycbusdriver]

One thing that seems to be largely misunderstood by the east folks is the level of stagnation that has occured out here. Since the deal was announced, there have been no upgrades, 140 downgrades, at least 200 retirements/deaths/medicals, etc and 175 +/- furloughs/LOA's. We are down from our peak of around 1900 pilots to around 1500. We are going on five years of complete stagnation/backsliding. 10% of our pilots are furloughed. All of this while watching the east recall 800+/- pilots, upgrade hundreds of captains and steal our flying because they do it cheaper.

The stagnation and backflow are happening out east as well. Those furloughed pilots recalled was something that happened in flush times. We now have pilots on furlough on the east (in case you hadn't noticed.) This "right sizing" would have been done on the west absent a merger anyway if you believe what Parker has said time and again. We are down from our peak of 5000+ pilots...so again, welcome to the club.

Yes, we want the Nic in place and we want it now. It's coming, and it's coming soon.

Now, before you keep repeating that, get those ruby slippers on and tap your heels together three times. Magic is the only thing that will make that happen any time soon.

 

[luvn737s]

welcome to the club.

I never signed up for this club. The downturns at AWA had never been so severe or prolonged as since the "lottery ticket" was announced.

Now, before you keep repeating that, get those ruby slippers on and tap your heels together three times.

The ruby slipper dance lessons seem pretty popular in the east. It ain't '83 and you're not in Pittsburgh any more.

 

[Black Swan]

I think the west brought 147 a/c to the deal. We are now at 120 and forecast to be back to 124 shortly with delieveries and one 737 coming back. The 27+/- a/c that are gone represent the 8000 hours per month of flying that transitions through PHX and LAS that has been transferred to east a/c.

One thing that seems to be largely misunderstood by the east folks is the level of stagnation that has occured out here. Since the deal was announced, there have been no upgrades, 140 downgrades, at least 200 retirements/deaths/medicals, etc and 175 +/- furloughs/LOA's. We are down from our peak of around 1900 pilots to around 1500. We are going on five years of complete stagnation/backsliding. 10% of our pilots are furloughed. All of this while watching the east recall 800+/- pilots, upgrade hundreds of captains and steal our flying because they do it cheaper.

Yes, we want the Nic in place and we want it now. It's coming, and it's coming soon. The gains from this merger have so far been 100% to the east, and it's time to share.

I am going to stick it out there and predict the 9th is going to have some interesting findings re Judge Wake, and the power he thinks he has to interfere/dictate union issues. Say what you want. I am sure Wake is a smart man, but is he really that well versed in union issues? I think not. I don't expect him to be. I do expect him to familiarize himself in areas of his jurisdiction, and that he failed to do.The part that drives this home is when he tried to impose Nic in it. This is the defining moment, where he showed his cards, and those cards said he was now, out of his knowledge and power. He revealed his weakness at the same time he thought he was displaying his power. And this is where anybody with any knowledge of the RLA aims his arrows.He cannot interfere in internal union issues, and that is where the 9th is going to hit him. No matter which side you are on, you have to really review the Baptiste and Wilder blog on this. They are spot on. A memo does not mean harm to anyone except a judge with a hard on for USAPA, and a jury that was prevented from hearing both sides.A judge that surely knows some former AWA pilots, or has spoken to a relative of one. I would expect this seeing where he lives.The fact he is a Bush appointee is also very telling. And this is going to draw some return fire also. Fire away...A Bush appointee is NOT going to lend an ear to a union argument, no matter what you say. He wouldn't have been appointed had he shown any leanings towards organized labor in the first place. To allow his personal opinions in his judgement and handling of the trial, absolutely unethical. I hope the 9th takes the time to analyze what this judge has done, and how , if they uphold Wake, this will remake the legal landscape with regard to unions,lawsuits, and "harm" being realized before it actually is real harm. You don't get harm unless the act happens. A memo is not harm. You maybe able to cry harm after a final proposal from USAPA is made for vote, but this one is premature. Yes, you are going to hammer me if I am wrong, but I am going to say that this judge is going to be pulled up by his leash very shortly. If this ruling goes forward, the 9th has to realize the floodgates will open with massive lawsuits from all sorts of unions, with regards to ripeness. They will obviously see it, and not allow it to go forward. It would be plowing new legal ground, and they are not going to go there. There will be thousands of suits. They know it. I can say I am going to rob a bank- until I do there is no crime.
You certainly want it, but remember- how are you going to make it happen? Remember, if you lose this one, and I say we take it on the appeal, but if you lose this, it is going to cost you even more money. Money you don't have to pay even the first round. If you have to appeal, you are going to face the fact we are going to grind you down monetarily. And if we win LOA 93, or even a part of it- say 18% and the 3% going forward- then you are done. If you win it? Then we appeal it, and it goes to the 18 judges next. All this takes a lot of money. So far, we are raising the cash no problem. The stakes are just too high not to, and we have the numbers to make it happen. Good luck.

 

[luvn737s]

If the 9th sides with USAPA, then binding arbitration means nothing, a much bigger issue than simple union politics.