US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/13- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[Black Swan]

If the arbitration was between ALPA and so is your CBA and TA, why isnt not valid then if you use your logic saying the arbitration was between alpa so it doesnt matter anymore?

Let me give you some info, changing unions doesnt alleviate arbitration or your CBA.

Did you go to the Baptiste and Wilder website and click on the RLA BLOG? It is a very compelling argument. I say again, was there EVER a signature put to the ALPA arbitration before we departed ALPA for USAPA? As far as most legal vehicles are concerned, you must have a mutually signed agreement. We changed bargaining agents before it was ever implemented.

 

[hp_fa]

You are totally out of your leage! Where do you come up with your biased opinion? Jeez. How do you know how the 9th is going to rule? Seham did a great job compared to the stuttuering Jackob.

Hello End of Usapa.

My opinions have always been biased in favor of what I thought was the honorable thing, and that is living with your agreement to accept the ruling of a binding arbitration that both parties agreed to accept. I've posted that many times. If you have been around very much you will know that I sometimes have disagreed with what West folks have said or done. But my position is the way it is basically because the East pilots, via their elected union leaders, chose to go to binding arbitration and had agreed to accept whatever ruling came from that arbitration.

As for your comment about Dr. Jacob, he has a speech impediment. If you had been at the trial you would have seen it there and been aware, rather than making that insulting comment about Dr. Jacob.

 

[OTTER574]

You are totally out of your leage! Where do you come up with your biased opinion? Jeez. How do you know how the 9th is going to rule? Seham did a great job compared to the stuttuering Jackob.

It's called Judge Wake's FINDINGS OF FACT along with our AOL excellent and outstanding attorneys TRUMPS sleaze lee seham BS written briefs and his 15 minutes of fame in front of the 9th circuit judges.

 

[TheBadCat1313]

Hello End of Usapa.

My opinions have always been biased in favor of what I thought was the honorable thing, and that is living with your agreement to accept the ruling of a binding arbitration that both parties agreed to accept. I've posted that many times. If you have been around very much you will know that I sometimes have disagreed with what West folks have said or done. But my position is the way it is basically because the East pilots, via their elected union leaders, chose to go to binding arbitration and had agreed to accept whatever ruling came from that arbitration.

As for your comment about Dr. Jacob, he has a speech impediment. If you had been at the trial you would have seen it there and been aware, rather than making that insulting comment about Dr. Jacob.

I'll second the comment about Dr. Jacob. And I think it's more of a case where his genius IQ brain is sending words out faster than his mouth can process them, rather than a typical speech impediment. If you spent five minutes in his company, you'd realize you're way out of your league. The man was a successful cardiac surgeon for years before becoming a lawyer. Compare his track record to that of Seham: A spoiled brat daddy's boy who rides his father's coattails and has a history of failures representing labor groups. He has made a career out of telling pissed-off labor groups what they want to hear and making millions off of them before they see the light and cut him loose. This time will be no different.

 

[TheBadCat1313]

We understand it all too well unfortunately. Welcome to US Airways! And some say the old US Airways is gone?

The East is down from it's peak of 6400 pilots to around 3400. 15 years of stagnation, more or less (actually, more like negative growth). Had over 30% on furlough. Yes, we understand it well!

BTW, NIC ain't coming any time soon. Neither is a joint contract. The gains for the East start again in about 3 years and it's not from this merger. Absent another merger or Chapter 7, we'll be in the same place three years from now. However, the East attrition will be kickin' in then!

Your decrease from 6400 to 3400 has to do with several issues, none of which have anything to do with AWA. Correct me if I'm wrong.

1) The overall downsizing of US over the years and getting your butts kicked out of PIT, BWI, etc by SWA.
2) The farming out of a bunch of your flying to RJ providers via the BK process.
3) Parking of whatever 3-pilot aircraft you had. (admittedly, I'm not sure how many there were or when they were parked.)
4) The wholesale gutting of your work rules, again via the BK process.

I wish I had a dime for every time I've heard a disparaging remark about RJ's from an east crew on the radio. YOUR company farmed YOUR flying out to them, and YOU hated it. But now that OUR management is doing the same thing, sending AWA flying to EAST crews, not a peep from you about the inequity. We are being whipsawed, pure and simple. The company loves this stuff. They thrive on it. The only way to get beyond it is to work together and obtain a new contract, and yes, that means the Nic. BTW, the west is now down to the minimum level of flying required by the TA. I don't know if they'll follow through with the announced furloughs, but we will also have our own attrition to draw on from here on out.

 

[Metroyet]

How is Wake going to enforce Nic!

Uhhh.. PERMANENT INJUNCTION ring a bell??!!

 

[Metroyet]

And what does this mean? Everybody was gearing up to get ALPA out. Can you really make a case for one guy with one opinion being the intent of thousands?

Well, Since your side Lost, (inside of 90 minutes of deliberations) I'd say quite emphatically....YES. you REALLY CAN MAKE A CASE for "one guy", (the self appointed president btw) representing the intent of the usapa voters. Why do you guys miss the obvious so often?

 

[nic4us]

.......................................................... I say again, was there EVER a signature put to the ALPA arbitration before we departed ALPA for USAPA? As far as most legal vehicles are concerned, you must have a mutually signed agreement. We changed bargaining agents before it was ever implemented.

The answere to your question is...Yes. There is a mutually signed agreement between the east MC (represented by Katz &Ranzman), and the West MC (represented by Brendhoff & Kaiser) to submit to binding arbitration in the matter of seniority integration. This was discussed at the Addington trial, when your crack team ( and by crack, I mean the slang term for ones posterior ) tried to make the arguement that the arbitration was only binding on the merger committees.

Further, the results of the arbitration were recognizeed by ALPA as being a legitimate result, and try as he may, that ( insert derogatory remark of your choosing) Prater had no choice but to submit the Nic to the company. Being the (insert again) he is, Prater sent P. Rice to forward the result to the company.

The company, the other signatory of the TA, reviewed the Nic, and as it met all criteria of the TA, accepted it as the pilot seniority list for LCC.

So again the answere is ..Yes. We have a mutually signed agreement and a letter of acceptance by the company. What we do not have is an implemented list, not because the list is illegitimate, but because the corrupt association elected to replace ALPA wished to unlawfully reneg on the Nic, and in doing so have poisoned the collective bargaining process.

 

[exB717Flyer]

The fact he is a Bush appointee is also very telling.

I have a cousin who practiced at the same firm as Wake. She spoke very highly of him and she's a Democrat. There was nothing pro- or anti-union about the Addington DFR trial.

 

[FlyUs]

Your decrease from 6400 to 3400 has to do with several issues, none of which have anything to do with AWA. Correct me if I'm wrong.

1) The overall downsizing of US over the years and getting your butts kicked out of PIT, BWI, etc by SWA.
2) The farming out of a bunch of your flying to RJ providers via the BK process.
3) Parking of whatever 3-pilot aircraft you had. (admittedly, I'm not sure how many there were or when they were parked.)
4) The wholesale gutting of your work rules, again via the BK process.

I wish I had a dime for every time I've heard a disparaging remark about RJ's from an east crew on the radio. YOUR company farmed YOUR flying out to them, and YOU hated it. But now that OUR management is doing the same thing, sending AWA flying to EAST crews, not a peep from you about the inequity. We are being whipsawed, pure and simple. The company loves this stuff. They thrive on it. The only way to get beyond it is to work together and obtain a new contract, and yes, that means the Nic. BTW, the west is now down to the minimum level of flying required by the TA. I don't know if they'll follow through with the announced furloughs, but we will also have our own attrition to draw on from here on out.

SWA didn't kick US out of PIT

 

[HPearlyretiree]

And what does this mean? Everybody was gearing up to get ALPA out. Can you really make a case for one guy with one opinion being the intent of thousands? So what if he wrote a letter? Many guys wrote letters. Writing letters and actually doing something is way different.Perhaps he had a change of heart between the time he wrote the letter and got involved. Make the case that Bradford is USAPA, and he made the vote for the majority. One man, one vote. One Bradford, one opinion. How can one person have the formation of USAPA and its'being voted in "put" to his person? Try and make this case for the formation of the USA, or other governments or associations. There were many people involved, and many people voted on it. I personally had NO knowledge of this, so put me on the stand and I will testify as to why I voted for USAPA, therefore share in its' incarnation as much as Bradford. Secondly- it does not matter. Had ALPA put its' ink on it, you would be absolutely correct. It would have been binding. It was never encapsulated in an ALPA environment.

Wow, the denial is strong. Yes its important, it spells out the pure sham that USAPA is. Its a spite union, created to wuss out of an agreement.

Sorry you don't get it.

You will.

 

[RSVP767]

Your decrease from 6400 to 3400 has to do with several issues, none of which have anything to do with AWA. Correct me if I'm wrong.

1) The overall downsizing of US over the years and getting your butts kicked out of PIT, BWI, etc by SWA.
2) The farming out of a bunch of your flying to RJ providers via the BK process.
3) Parking of whatever 3-pilot aircraft you had. (admittedly, I'm not sure how many there were or when they were parked.)
4) The wholesale gutting of your work rules, again via the BK process.

I wish I had a dime for every time I've heard a disparaging remark about RJ's from an east crew on the radio. YOUR company farmed YOUR flying out to them, and YOU hated it. But now that OUR management is doing the same thing, sending AWA flying to EAST crews, not a peep from you about the inequity. We are being whipsawed, pure and simple. The company loves this stuff. They thrive on it. The only way to get beyond it is to work together and obtain a new contract, and yes, that means the Nic. BTW, the west is now down to the minimum level of flying required by the TA. I don't know if they'll follow through with the announced furloughs, but we will also have our own attrition to draw on from here on out.

You are correct. Our downsizing was a result of all those events and more! Not the least of which was several management teams that would rather 'paint the pig' for the next deal instead of actually fix and run an airline. I was not tying it to the AWA merge. I was merely welcoming you to our reality, and now yours'.

This place HAS BEEN, IS, AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE a train wreck until everyone starts pulling in the same direction....East, West, Management and Labor. East won't accept any contract containing NIC. West won't acept any contract that does not contain NIC. Management doesn't want ANY contract until it NEEDS one, or until this train is about to depart the tracks. Currently the train is running smoothly and management is laughing all the way to the bank. They have the cheapest labor among their piers and two pilot groups they can continue to whipsaw, just as you say.

I don't see any olive branches coming from any direction. And I don't expect to. The East currently has something better than NIC, and that is Seperate Ops! The West wants something better but is unwilling to concede or modify the NIC. There is much to play out here and it's going to take quite some time. Like I said.....I believe we will be in the same position three years from now, absent an aditional merger, bankruptcy or force majeure event. Yes, some issues will be settled (9th, LOA93, MDA and maybe even SCOTUS by then), but we will still be in seperate ops under separate contracts. Most likely......another merge event will occur. But that still leaves us (three groups then) under seperate ops and seperate contracts three years from now.

As for the RJ's. It was a trend within the whole industry as you know. We tried to fight it but lost in the end. ALPA certainly didn't help there. As for East/West flying it's going both ways. You're doing some flying we did, we're doing some flying you did. Bottom line, both sides are at minimum fleet and minimum hours and will remain there for the foreseeable future. Actually, we'd probably be shrinking further if management could have their way (ala the Kirby proposal).

Enjoy your attrition!

 

[boeingplt]

... we will also have our own attrition to draw on from here on out.

You would have that with USAPA's conditions and restrictions too.

 

[traderjake]

Ask yourself this Trader....if you've adequate time, and space available for processing a minor inquiry: WHY is it that it is solely the west contingent that's so passionately desirous of combined ops?

Are you saying that the company does not desire a combined operation?

You may not have noticed but the place you go to fly airplanes is a for profit business.

 

[traderjake]

You would have that with USAPA's conditions and restrictions too.

If USAirways furloughs 1000 pilots under DOH with USAPA conditions and restrictions how many would be East pilots?

That is the number one reason why your C and R's won't fly.