US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/13- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[RSVP767]

I think the East pilots need to educate themselves on the RLA, one way or another NIC will be implemented, once you enter Section 6 Negotiations and go through the process and never reach an agreement the company will impose it, and then you can strike, how many pilots will strike and give up a six figure paying job?

Yes, it's possible it could play out this way. Under this senario the comany could impose NIC (perhaps at its own peril). So yes, NIC may be IMPOSED, but it will never be ACCEPTED or voted into a contract.

 

[HPDriver]

FELLOW USAPA MEMBERS:
Here are the inconvenient realities. This was an ALPA sanctioned integration. We WRECKED them, didn't sign(of course) and sent them packing after all the "deals" they worked with our past ALPA leadership, without our input. They underestimated the resolve of our group. They paid with the loss of 3 MILLION dollars in dues money per annum. Last time I looked, they were a smoking hole. Next reality: This aborted merger is 5 yrs. old and counting. So far any of us has yet to fly anothers jet, get paid the same( to your amusement) or share a combined contract. The next reality is the Nicolau. The reality is, we are as of this time, yrs. later- undamaged. We understand what we have to do in order to prevent it becoming the next "deal". The next reality is this: after all the crying of monies we and me owe individually, we have yet to see an assessment at the mailbox. You, on the other hand, have been told to pay up or shut up if you want to turn a wheel. So far you have paid up. These, are the realities at hand. Is there is some reality I have missed so far????

FELLOW USAPA MEMBERS:

It's individuals like these that have led you down a path that has cost you dearly. You have given up much for a small group of angry FO's in terms of pay and quality of life.

USAPA is in complete turmoil. The utopian plan for a democratic pilot's union is a failure. Nicolau is more secure than ever. No snapbacks. No contracts. The only thing that is certain is LOA 93 and the "Cactus" call sign you now use everyday with no complaint.

But the tide is turning. Many of you that have become disenchanted with the ALPA-eaque politics and are starting to show your frustration. The reality of Nicolau has set in and the realization that the appeal will be just another USAPAic failure in a long list of failures is setting in very quickly.

USAPA has failed each and every one of you because today, many of you on the east fly for less money than a 5 year Jetblue EMB Captain. And now, even the Hawaiian pilots are looking at higher pay rates with their new contract. At least ALPA is getting it done over there - smoking hole and all.

Be sure to thank your BPR. With your continuing employment under LOA 93, you east pilots are now truly the LOWEST paid in the industry!

 

[HPDriver]

I suspect that, AT A MINIMUM, we will begin receiving the annual 3% pay increase every May

Yo RSVP,

I "suspect" you won't be getting anything.

No, check that. I KNOW you won't be getting anything.

You're only chance of a pay raise is through a new contract.

Amazing how this 3% stuff started coming up when the snapback hopes were trashed.

Keep dreaming though. It's good for the soul.

 

[cleardirect]

Yo Metro,

I suspect that, AT A MINIMUM, we will begin receiving the annual 3% pay increase every May (yes, even during the status quo period, as per the contract) when the LOA93 grievance is done. Now, let's take a look at how that works for us.

Starting with the current A320/B737 Captain rate of $125/hr and assumong the 3%/year:
- 2015 = $144.90 (ah, parity in 5 years from now....how have the last five years addressed this issue?)
- 2020 = $168.00
- 2025 = $194.70
- 2030 = $225.76 (that's an 81% pay raise from today's rates not even accounting for the upward movement that starts in 3 years)

Now let's take a look back at the last 20 years:
- 1990 = $150
- 2000 = $161 (breif peak at $227 in 2002)
- 2010 = $125
Yeah, I know......stellar, isn't it!

All in all, not great....but certainly better than we've seen in recent years. And, disregarding any pay bumps that may come from negotioations, I think it's safe to say you won't see 3%/year in anything the company offers.

A meager 3%/year beats anything we've seen over our last 20 year roller coaster ride when all is said and done. Funny, reminds me of a story....'The Tortoise and the Hare'. Slow and steady.....in the end you win! So, let's see now... 3%/year raise, BIG attrition, and no NIC......sign me up for status quo into perpetuity!

As for the 'maybe two dozen' guys willing to move or commute to the East.......we have a few guys back here you can talk to about that. They worked for PSA (remember them). How many pilots do we have based in SFO, LAX and SAN now??? Now tell me, what's going to happen to LAS in 15 days?

In the end, none of us can say for sure what will materialize. This place could be dust in two years or twice it's size and growing in ten years. No one can say. Thats' why it is so rediculous to base one's career on a mere snapshot in time!

"All we really have to fear, is fear itself".

Excuse me. I think that you need to get with the spin machine masters, you are off message. What everyone else is telling the west, accept this now for the west will inherit the airline in 10 years. In 10 years all of this will be ours. We have been told that most or all of the east pilots will have retired.Which is it? You are all going to be gone or here for another 20 years?

So your false scale of 2030 is just more smoke,lies false expectations.

 

[EastUS]

This place could be dust in two years or twice it's size and growing in ten years. No one can say. Thats' why it is so rediculous to base one's career on a mere snapshot in time!

Excellent post sir.

East economic considerations seem unduly mysterious to much of the west contingent.

Frankly; The whole nic business is pretty cut and dried to me. I find the entire notion of ever placing anyone, within the same craft and category, who had all of three months worked as equivalent or even superior to another with 17 years worked to be an utterly immoral abomination.....period. I couldn't possibly care any less about whether it's an abberrant result of arbitration, courtrooms....or merely mass insanity. It's just plain wrong on so many levels that I'll never accept it, nor ever vote it into existence....period.

On a yet more intangible level: I genuinely like the vast majority of the fantastic folks I'm priveleged to fly with. Why would/should I reasonably want to ever sell them out in favor of potential replacements from the "and we hate you guys" contingent?

 

[Tiger 1050]

Be sure to thank your BPR. With your continuing employment under LOA 93, you east pilots are now truly the LOWEST paid in the industry!

HP,
The occasional corrections notwithstanding, I believe some of these east guys will have to completely auger in to grasp the true reality. Sure they have prevented the Nic and that is good gamesmanship on their part but while we wait for a response from the 9th most of our counterparts out east are beginning to think clearly and thus realize that it is in fact inevitable. As a matter of fact one can easily discern this truth by witnessing their impotent rage of late. Granted some have stood firm in their abhorrence of the Nic but lately we have seen a new "high" when it comes to their stomping of feet and their petty threats. Hmmm, I recall someone claiming someone else "starting to levitate." Do you know what the practice of Psychology calls this behavior? Projection. It is defined as: the unconscious transfer of one's own desires or emotions to another person.

 

[Black Swan]

FELLOW USAPA MEMBERS:

It's individuals like these that have led you down a path that has cost you dearly. You have given up much for a small group of angry FO's in terms of pay and quality of life.

USAPA is in complete turmoil. The utopian plan for a democratic pilot's union is a failure. Nicolau is more secure than ever. No snapbacks. No contracts. The only thing that is certain is LOA 93 and the "Cactus" call sign you now use everyday with no complaint.

But the tide is turning. Many of you that have become disenchanted with the ALPA-eaque politics and are starting to show your frustration. The reality of Nicolau has set in and the realization that the appeal will be just another USAPAic failure in a long list of failures is setting in very quickly.

USAPA has failed each and every one of you because today, many of you on the east fly for less money than a 5 year Jetblue EMB Captain. And now, even the Hawaiian pilots are looking at higher pay rates with their new contract. At least ALPA is getting it done over there - smoking hole and all.

Be sure to thank your BPR. With your continuing employment under LOA 93, you east pilots are now truly the LOWEST paid in the industry!

FELLOW USAPA MEMBERS:
Look at the previous posted payrates for the east. These are the rates we earned for a large measure of our careers. We for the most part have already shouldered the big costs of our lives, and saved.Your continued mantra of poor earnings is absolutely untrue. Compare an 83 U hire to a 83' AWA pilot W-2 over time, and you certainly see who had the raw deal. Take your little snapshot, and call it what you want.You just recently got some semblance of a decent pay rate. For yrs. you had the worst contract running, and the entire industry knew it. I can take a snapshot of your housing values right now, and claim it is your entire housing value over time. As bad as home values are in PHX and LAS, and I don't know what they will look like in a few yrs. from now, although one could most likely guess. A few years ago they were better. It would be unfair to take todays' values and say they were the norm.If we have "truly" the lowest pay rates, one could say you "truly" have the the worst housing market. This is our collective reality, since you reference economic circumstances.
As far as the reality of the NIC "setting in"- well, this is your little fantasy. And the references to ALPA? You saw what we did to them. Gone, DOA, SMOKING HOLE.... Take a look at Midwest, and you can see the power of ALPA. Are you familiar? Seems ALPA somehow allowed the ALPA Midwest group to be entirely replaced by Republic pilots. We all knew what had to be done with ALPA and their merger policy that was totally driven by UAL and their collective dreams. They all wanted us gone. Guess what? We are here, we are your reality, and we are going to flush any contract that includes Nic right back down the rathole from where it crawled. This is from a 33yr. former ALPA member.

 

[Flippin43]

FELLOW USAPA MEMBERS:
Here are the inconvenient realities. This was an ALPA sanctioned integration. We WRECKED them, didn't sign(of course) and sent them packing after all the "deals" they worked with our past ALPA leadership, without our input. They underestimated the resolve of our group. They paid with the loss of 3 MILLION dollars in dues money per annum. Last time I looked, they were a smoking hole. Next reality: This aborted merger is 5 yrs. old and counting. So far any of us has yet to fly anothers jet, get paid the same( to your amusement) or share a combined contract. The next reality is the Nicolau. The reality is, we are as of this time, yrs. later- undamaged. We understand what we have to do in order to prevent it becoming the next "deal". The next reality is this: after all the crying of monies we and me owe individually, we have yet to see an assessment at the mailbox. You, on the other hand, have been told to pay up or shut up if you want to turn a wheel. So far you have paid up. These, are the realities at hand. Is there is some reality I have missed so far????

Mr. Swan,


Alpa sanctioned or Acme Arbitrations it just doesn't matter. The AGREEMENT to use Arbitration and its results is between the AWA pilots and the AAA pilots. Even the RLA Parachutists know this. If this is incorrect, I'm open to a legal basis as to how its incorrect.

I thought you were going to explain the whole "reset the clock" thing for us "Rookies"


Flip

 

[HPDriver]

FELLOW USAPA MEMBERS:
Look at the previous posted payrates for the east. These are the rates we earned for a large measure of our careers. We for the most part have already shouldered the big costs of our lives, and saved.Your continued mantra of poor earnings is absolutely untrue. Compare an 83 U hire to a 83' AWA pilot W-2 over time, and you certainly see who had the raw deal. Take your little snapshot, and call it what you want.You just recently got some semblance of a decent pay rate. For yrs. you had the worst contract running, and the entire industry knew it. I can take a snapshot of your housing values right now, and claim it is your entire housing value over time. As bad as home values are in PHX and LAS, and I don't know what they will look like in a few yrs. from now, although one could most likely guess. A few years ago they were better. It would be unfair to take todays' values and say they were the norm.If we have "truly" the lowest pay rates, one could say you "truly" have the the worst housing market. This is our collective reality, since you reference economic circumstances.
As far as the reality of the NIC "setting in"- well, this is your little fantasy. And the references to ALPA? You saw what we did to them. Gone, DOA, SMOKING HOLE.... Take a look at Midwest, and you can see the power of ALPA. Are you familiar? Seems ALPA somehow allowed the ALPA Midwest group to be entirely replaced by Republic pilots. We all knew what had to be done with ALPA and their merger policy that was totally driven by UAL and their collective dreams. They all wanted us gone. Guess what? We are here, we are your reality, and we are going to flush any contract that includes Nic right back down the rathole from where it crawled. This is from a 33yr. former ALPA member.

FELLOW USAPA MEMBERS:

Look at the previous post. This individual continues to live in the past. He cites non-existant pay rates instead of defending the current ones he chooses under which to live. And, in typical east fashion, he thinks only of himself when mentions that his big costs have come to pass. What about those of you that still have those big costs? I guess that doesn't matter because he's gotten his.

And, in what smacks of desperation, Black Swan falls back to the housing market as an argument. Why? Because he has nothing else by which to legitimize his argument. I mean, come on:

"If we have "truly" the lowest pay rates, one could say you "truly" have the the worst housing market."

YHGTBSM!!! That has got to be THE most ridiculous statement I have EVER read on this board.

So, fellow USAPA members, while Black Swan talks about how weak the PHX housing market is, you east pilots continue to wallow under LOA93 as Hawaiian and Jetblue collect their new payrates.

 

[Hate2fly]

The Black Swan is speaking the truth. The westies are in desperation mode big time! You have got them in maximum levitation mode! Classic. Just like Freund said.........all the risk is on the west side! How about the Bap & Wild blog. B. Wilder crushes the desert judge and his decision making process during the trial.......it became a hobby for the judge was a favorite of mine. Ripeness is such a problem for the west! And they are levitating!

Hate

 

[cleardirect]

FELLOW USAPA MEMBERS:
Here are the inconvenient realities. This was an ALPA sanctioned integration. We WRECKED them, didn't sign(of course) and sent them packing after all the "deals" they worked with our past ALPA leadership, without our input. They underestimated the resolve of our group. They paid with the loss of 3 MILLION dollars in dues money per annum. Last time I looked, they were a smoking hole. Next reality: This aborted merger is 5 yrs. old and counting. So far any of us has yet to fly anothers jet, get paid the same( to your amusement) or share a combined contract. The next reality is the Nicolau. The reality is, we are as of this time, yrs. later- undamaged. We understand what we have to do in order to prevent it becoming the next "deal". The next reality is this: after all the crying of monies we and me owe individually, we have yet to see an assessment at the mailbox. You, on the other hand, have been told to pay up or shut up if you want to turn a wheel. So far you have paid up. These, are the realities at hand. Is there is some reality I have missed so far????

Well I am sure that your MDA brothers appreciate you tanking their case. Can you say RIPENESS?

As you just admitted the east is UNDAMAGED. How can the judge fix something that has not happened yet? How can a judge award $175 million to pilots that have not been damaged?

My best guess is that ALPA files for summary judgment on ripeness and the whole MDA case goes to the trash can. That has got to hurt. Defeated by USAPA’s own argument. Man I love the irony.

 

[HPDriver]

My best guess is that ALPA files for summary judgment on ripeness and the whole MDA case goes to the trash can.

2/12/2010

 

[Hate2fly]

Clear, This statement above shows us what little knowledge of the MDA case you have. Good luck!

Hate

 

[HPDriver]

Clear, This statement above shows us what little knowledge of the MDA case you have. Good luck!

Hate

Actually, he's spot on.

Just got the paperwork off PACER.

 

[HPDriver]

The Black Swan is speaking the truth. The westies are in desperation mode big time! You have got them in maximum levitation mode! Classic. Just like Freund said.........all the risk is on the west side! How about the Bap & Wild blog. B. Wilder crushes the desert judge and his decision making process during the trial.......it became a hobby for the judge was a favorite of mine. Ripeness is such a problem for the west! And they are levitating!

Hate

Let's see here.

Black Swan goes to the PHX housing market and you go to Wilder's blog.

Man, you guys are desperate for material.