US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/13- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[bigbusdrvr]

I didnt get much reply to my suggested contract provisions that had an accepted nic list.....

So for the people that can see past their nose, let me be more specific......

If the 9th rules against the east (Probable) if the arbitrator rules with the company on loa 93(for the sake of argument say yes)

Their will be a contract including the nic,(judges rule, aint gonna change) judge caint dictate pay provisions, just seniority list....

So, now seniority dictates which seat you hold and the seat dictates pay....that is the problem that needs to change...

with nic, let the seniority dictate the seat, let the los dictate the pay.....it works for all other work groups, expect lawsuits if it doesnt work for this group....

Simple enough, now get over it, get on with negoations, get on with it.......

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not True. Within the next 10 years....

That would create enough vacated Captain positions for all the remaining East F/O's to upgrade.

What happened to new hires getting 737/320 Captain bids by 2013-2015?

Jim

 

[EastUS]

I doubt that a Tenative Agreement is even achievable in this decade, absent a merger where Parker is willing to throw money at the pilots to get the deal done.

The Nicolau Award IS the seniority list of the future at USAirways. How many years and millions will it take for you to accept that fact?

1) Agreed.

2) "How many years.....?" By your posted estimations above...apparently, another ten years?

 

[Metroyet]

1) Agreed.

2) "How many years.....?" By your posted estimations above...apparently, another ten years?

We'll see in 2010.

 

[traderjake]

Trying to impose NIC at any point would guarantee an eventual pilot strike.

underpants

How many West pilots are going to honor a USAPA picket line prevent imposing the Nic?

I know one East pilot who won't.

 

[HPDriver]

The number that has been going around is 80,000, what a joke!!!!

Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

 

[HPDriver]

What happened to new hires getting 737/320 Captain bids by 2013-2015?

Jim

Please don't confuse him with his own thoughts.

I think that's one of the things that gets you banned.

 

[EastUS]

Now if Parker or management believe that paying raises is offset by the benefits of intra-pilot peace and increased productivity, then this could go much faster. But until the intra-pilot squabbles end the company has no real motivation to negotiate in a meaningful way unless a merger is in the wind.

I believe the first has been previously addressed: "Happy pilots = No cost advantage." should a meger be in the wind; I'd suggest that scenario provides the arguably worst case per motivating the east towards any acceptance of the nic. Contracts, as we all know, are ephemeral instruments boys and girls....so, let's all surrender any semblance of seniority going into the unknown territory of another merger????

 

[Black Swan]

How many West pilots are going to honor a USAPA picket line prevent imposing the Nic?

I know one East pilot who won't.

Where are you going to get an imposed NIC? It has not happened yet. The desert judge thought about it longingly, but the reality of living in the USA and the reality of the RLA brought him up short on his leash. Believe me, he wanted to, but when it came down to it, the thoughts of NMB lawyers parachuting into the courtroom was too scary for even the Honorable Neil Wake. I have to laugh when I read "the Nic is right around the corner..." I say the cold hard fact that a judge cannot interfere with union matters is the harder idea for most of you to fathom.

 

[Black Swan]

Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

From the same book that says the company can do whatever it can with a courts' permission. I cannot wait to see what the 9th says about imposing a seniority list on a union. You might get some minor satisfaction, which will undoubtedly be blown out of proportion. The Nicolau being imposed? Dangerous at the least. This is an internal union matter. Even Wake knew when he was swimming in dangrous terrritory. I am sure he sadly informed some of your group of this fact. Ask yourself the pertinent question if you will. Was the deal signed with ALPA on the property? You know the answer to that. New bargaining agent, back to square one. The clock was reset on the entire process. With what is a stake here, it is going to be a long, expensive, arduous process for all involved.

 

[Metroyet]

The Nicolau being imposed? Dangerous at the least. This is an internal union matter.... Was the deal signed with ALPA on the property? You know the answer to that. New bargaining agent, back to square one. The clock was reset on the entire process. With what is a stake here, it is going to be a long, expensive, arduous process for all involved.

Dude, where have you been? Which trial are you referring to? How, after all this time, and after so many Losses, can you still be THIS confused as to what the reality of the situation is. Everything you're professing here has been backhanded by the legal system. This is NOT an internal union matter. I recall one of your dear leaders saying after the election, "look at your contract, everywhere you see ALPA, it now says USAPA" ALPA being on the property and being replaced has a net ZERO effect on USAPAs duty to fairly represent. That only means one thing. USAPA was bound by every single agreement ALPA had before the election. There is no fantasy "square one" to go back to. Haven't you been paying any attention? It already has been a long, expensive, arduous process. It's about to be over with the final nail in USAPAs evil plan to STEAL what they couldn't negotiate, mediate, or arbitrate. It's over son. I don't know where you get your facts, probably the same place AMW scrapped up your nearly dead airline.
"

 

[cleardirect]

I didnt get much reply to my suggested contract provisions that had an accepted nic list.....

So for the people that can see past their nose, let me be more specific......

If the 9th rules against the east (Probable) if the arbitrator rules with the company on loa 93(for the sake of argument say yes)

Their will be a contract including the nic,(judges rule, aint gonna change) judge caint dictate pay provisions, just seniority list....

So, now seniority dictates which seat you hold and the seat dictates pay....that is the problem that needs to change...

with nic, let the seniority dictate the seat, let the los dictate the pay.....it works for all other work groups, expect lawsuits if it doesnt work for this group....

Simple enough, now get over it, get on with negoations, get on with it.......

Let me understand what your idea here is. You want to pay pilots not by the seat they sit in or the airplane they hold but simply how long they have been on the property. That a 20 year FO would get paid more than a 19 year captain. Is that correct?

First you all have to stop comparing pilots to other work groups we are unique among labor so let that go. Second because the east pilots do not like the agreement that you made you want to turn the entire industry upside down and change the whole way an airline gets paid. Good luck with that.

I suggest that you contact the NAC and let them explain the multiple problems and issues that this would cause. The first and most important is the violation of a federal injunction. Second would be getting the company to agree to something so out of the norm for an airline contract.

The east pilots really need to stop wasting your time trying to figure a way out of the deep hole that you dug yourselves and begin to figure out how to accept this list and get over your hate for the west.

 

[Flippin43]

From the same book that says the company can do whatever it can with a courts' permission. I cannot wait to see what the 9th says about imposing a seniority list on a union. You might get some minor satisfaction, which will undoubtedly be blown out of proportion. The Nicolau being imposed? Dangerous at the least. This is an internal union matter. Even Wake knew when he was swimming in dangrous terrritory. I am sure he sadly informed some of your group of this fact. Ask yourself the pertinent question if you will. Was the deal signed with ALPA on the property? You know the answer to that. New bargaining agent, back to square one. The clock was reset on the entire process. With what is a stake here, it is going to be a long, expensive, arduous process for all involved.

Mr. Swan

At risk of sounding like Al Gore, here are some "Inconvienent truths" you need to reconcile.

A Judge has every right to "interfere" in internal union matters when the Majority tries to disadvantage the Minority. When this is attempted it is called a DFR violation. It is firmly embeded in RLA. Ask your RLA parachuting lawyers.

As far as the "deal" being "signed" with Alpa on the property. It could have been with "The Wolf or The Hawk" for that matter. Alpa or anyone else represented you all the way to the door of the Arbitration room. Once the too pilot groups entered, we were on our own. The agreement to go there was between AAA pilots and the AWA pilots. Read again if you will the front page of the Award. It is an agreement between AAA pilots (represented by Alpa) and the AWA pilots (represented by Alpa) Its essentially an agreement between you and me, Alpa has nothing to do with it. How could Alpa have an agreement with itself? And as a agreement your pilot group made with mine to live with the results of the Arbitration. usapa, moved in to Alpa's house and inherits the responsibility of adhering to that agreement because you made it not Alpa or usapa.


Explain, to us all the premise of "the clock was reset". Where can I find the legal basis for this statement. Quoting lee seham is not quite accurate enough by the way.


Flip

 

[Black Swan]

Mr. Swan

At risk of sounding like Al Gore, here are some "Inconvienent truths" you need to reconcile.

A Judge has every right to "interfere" in internal union matters when the Majority tries to disadvantage the Minority. When this is attempted it is called a DFR violation. It is firmly embeded in RLA. Ask your RLA parachuting lawyers.

As far as the "deal" being "signed" with Alpa on the property. It could have been with "The Wolf or The Hawk" for that matter. Alpa or anyone else represented you all the way to the door of the Arbitration room. Once the too pilot groups entered, we were on our own. The agreement to go there was between AAA pilots and the AWA pilots. Read again if you will the front page of the Award. It is an agreement between AAA pilots (represented by Alpa) and the AWA pilots (represented by Alpa) Its essentially an agreement between you and me, Alpa has nothing to do with it. How could Alpa have an agreement with itself? And as a agreement your pilot group made with mine to live with the results of the Arbitration. usapa, moved in to Alpa's house and inherits the responsibility of adhering to that agreement because you made it not Alpa or usapa.


Explain, to us all the premise of "the clock was reset". Where can I find the legal basis for this statement. Quoting lee seham is not quite accurate enough by the way.


Flip

FELLOW USAPA MEMBERS:
Here are the inconvenient realities. This was an ALPA sanctioned integration. We WRECKED them, didn't sign(of course) and sent them packing after all the "deals" they worked with our past ALPA leadership, without our input. They underestimated the resolve of our group. They paid with the loss of 3 MILLION dollars in dues money per annum. Last time I looked, they were a smoking hole. Next reality: This aborted merger is 5 yrs. old and counting. So far any of us has yet to fly anothers jet, get paid the same( to your amusement) or share a combined contract. The next reality is the Nicolau. The reality is, we are as of this time, yrs. later- undamaged. We understand what we have to do in order to prevent it becoming the next "deal". The next reality is this: after all the crying of monies we and me owe individually, we have yet to see an assessment at the mailbox. You, on the other hand, have been told to pay up or shut up if you want to turn a wheel. So far you have paid up. These, are the realities at hand. Is there is some reality I have missed so far????

 

[RSVP767]

Inflation will eat 3% a year. You do realize that maybe two dozen guys would be willing to move or commute to the East coast for a reserve left seat right? In the end. I think you'll find that what you fear most was never going to materialize in the first place.

Yo Metro,

I suspect that, AT A MINIMUM, we will begin receiving the annual 3% pay increase every May (yes, even during the status quo period, as per the contract) when the LOA93 grievance is done. Now, let's take a look at how that works for us.

Starting with the current A320/B737 Captain rate of $125/hr and assumong the 3%/year:
- 2015 = $144.90 (ah, parity in 5 years from now....how have the last five years addressed this issue?)
- 2020 = $168.00
- 2025 = $194.70
- 2030 = $225.76 (that's an 81% pay raise from today's rates not even accounting for the upward movement that starts in 3 years)

Now let's take a look back at the last 20 years:
- 1990 = $150
- 2000 = $161 (breif peak at $227 in 2002)
- 2010 = $125
Yeah, I know......stellar, isn't it!

All in all, not great....but certainly better than we've seen in recent years. And, disregarding any pay bumps that may come from negotioations, I think it's safe to say you won't see 3%/year in anything the company offers.

A meager 3%/year beats anything we've seen over our last 20 year roller coaster ride when all is said and done. Funny, reminds me of a story....'The Tortoise and the Hare'. Slow and steady.....in the end you win! So, let's see now... 3%/year raise, BIG attrition, and no NIC......sign me up for status quo into perpetuity!

As for the 'maybe two dozen' guys willing to move or commute to the East.......we have a few guys back here you can talk to about that. They worked for PSA (remember them). How many pilots do we have based in SFO, LAX and SAN now??? Now tell me, what's going to happen to LAS in 15 days?

In the end, none of us can say for sure what will materialize. This place could be dust in two years or twice it's size and growing in ten years. No one can say. Thats' why it is so rediculous to base one's career on a mere snapshot in time!

"All we really have to fear, is fear itself".