US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/13- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[Captain Underpants]

Much of the attrition comes from the middle of the East list. The age 55 or older F/O's are those retiring when that attrition kicks in (EAST US is a prime example.)

Take a look at the East Captain's demographic and you will find many of the most senior are still relatively young.

Not True. Within the next 10 years at least 80% of the top 40% of East pilots will retire and just 34% of the bottom 60% of East pilots will reach mandatory retirement age.

That would create enough vacated Captain positions for all the remaining East F/O's to upgrade. But under NIC 1/2 the remaining East F/O's could never upgrade. Of the ones that could upgrade almost none could make Widebody Captain and most would be on reserve or remain as F/O until retirement even with up to 35 years seniority.

In other words under NIC the East pilots career relative position and career earnings would be destroyed compared to remaining separate.

NIC does not in any way respect relative position or DOH. It simply inverts the seniority list placing the younger and junior West pilots on top and tries to create the largest merger seniority and resulting cash windfall in the history of aviation. Simple math proves it.

underpants

 

[N924PS]

NIC does not in any way respect relative position or DOH.

underpants

Have you ever even read the Nicolau Award?

It reflects relative position.

The West pilots think the 517 senior East pilots got a windfall.

DOH was not the bedrock of ALPA merger policy when the HP/US merger took place.

You could have enjoyed separate operations under ALPA, and saved a lot of money by doing just that.

I say again: If USAPA/USAirways can present a Tenative Agreement that shows appropriate pay/work rule/vacation improvements from LOA 93 and the current West contract-it will pass.

 

[Captain Underpants]

Have you ever even read the Nicolau Award?

It reflects relative position.

Save Dave O. is senior to Dean C. under NIC.

Now under separate operations DC can hold 767I F/O or E190 C/O and DO is furloughed.

Which one holds a higher relative position? The Captain or the furloughed pilot? With 4 to 1 attrition what will happen to their respective relative positions going forward? NIC never did and certainly never will reflect equitable relative position. DOH will however over time reflect equitable relative position and honor length of service as 99% of all union contracts do.

Do you really think you will ever get the opportunity to vote yourself a raise by giving away someone else's seniority?

The only way a NIC contract would pass would be for you and the West pilots to vote themselves a 30% pay cut in order to buy the NIC into the contract.

underpants

 

[700UW]

I think the East pilots need to educate themselves on the RLA, one way or another NIC will be implemented, once you enter Section 6 Negotiations and go through the process and never reach an agreement the company will impose it, and then you can strike, how many pilots will strike and give up a six figure paying job?

 

[East Hole]

So you think that it's realistic to be living under LOA 93 until the year 2030? Bear in mind that Jet Blue E190 captains make more than your narrowbody captains now. Do some math concerning the time value of money and see how you fare. What's an LOA93 dollar going to be worth in 10...15...20 years? Inflation will eat 3% a year. You'd be better off managing a burger king. You do realize that maybe two dozen guys would be willing to move or commute to the East coast for a reserve left seat right? In the end. I think you'll find that what you fear most was never going to materialize in the first place. Nic isn't going to go away, it's not the West pilots fault that the East careers have sucked so unbelievably bad. This isn't a war, it's mass denial. As always, there will be a contract signed when the company wants one.

Why can't you westies fiqure this out already. This is a lessor of two evils decision for us. Its that simple.

 

[HPDriver]

I think the East pilots need to educate themselves on the RLA, one way or another NIC will be implemented, once you enter Section 6 Negotiations and go through the process and never reach an agreement the company will impose it, and then you can strike, how many pilots will strike and give up a six figure paying job?

Strike vote won't be anywhere near 50%.

If it even hit 40% I'd be shocked.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Save Dave O. is senior to Dean C. under NIC.

Now under separate operations DC can hold 767I F/O or E190 C/O and DO is furloughed.

Which one holds a higher relative position? The Captain or the furloughed pilot? With 4 to 1 attrition what will happen to their respective relative positions going forward? NIC never did and certainly never will reflect equitable relative position. DOH will however over time reflect equitable relative position and honor length of service as 99% of all union contracts do.

Do you really think you will ever get the opportunity to vote yourself a raise by giving away someone else's seniority?

The only way a NIC contract would pass would be for you and the West pilots to vote themselves a 30% pay cut in order to buy the NIC into the contract.

underpants

DOH is not germane to the current pilot integration issue. There is no scenario by which DOH could be used as the basis for a list under a new CBA. The company has accepted the NIC. Neither binding arbitration nor the NIC award itself is on trial in the Addington case. So, even a win at the SCOTUS (infinitesimally small odds) would not reverse the NIC award. Only two outcomes are likely on the appeals front: 1) the case is ruled to lack ripeness which just resets the legal status back to the starting line, but doesn’t change the NIC into a DOH list, or 2) Wake is found to have made procedural or interpretational errors and the case goes back to his court with instructions from the circuit court. Neither of these outcomes would allow USAPA to institute a DOH seniority system. You can wish all you want and throw math, statistics and scenarios out that prove that NIC is not fair in your mind, but it won’t change the fact that the NIC is the only list that can be used for a new CBA. Decertification or liquidation of USAPA is the only way to render the NIC unenforceable in a new CBA.

 

[Captain Underpants]

I think the East pilots need to educate themselves on the RLA, one way or another NIC will be implemented, once you enter Section 6 Negotiations and go through the process and never reach an agreement the company will impose it, and then you can strike, how many pilots will strike and give up a six figure paying job?

Yes you are correct the company can impose a contract at self-help. The previous contract would expire and the company would be free to impose any terms and conditions of employment and the union would be free to strike.

A strike would likely be a CHAOS strike. Alaska F/A's using a CHAOS type strike struck 7 flights intermittently and the company stated publicly the airline would fail because of lost revenue if the strike continued. They settled the strike within 1 hour of losing a court challenge to the legality of the strike by granting the F/A's demand for a 60% pay raise plus all other requested contract improvements. A handful of F/A's were replaced for a few weeks but their lost wages were covered by the AFA.

The company would face the choice of imposing NIC and certainly killing the company and the 32,000 jobs or settling for a fair and equitable seniority integration at no cost plus an industry standard contract at competitive costs.

underpants

 

[HPDriver]

The company would face the choice of imposing NIC and certainly killing the company ...

Please.

A few angry FO's walking off the airplane won't even show up as a blip in the operation.

Like the 1-1-10 stickers proved, you guys are all talk.

 

[Barrister]

You guys are going to end up in a dictionary some day, under the heading of "epic fail."

If the 9th remands on the ripeness issue, it simply means that USAPA will subsequently be DFR'd. It does not and will not change the inevitable fact that in order to see any contract but LOA93, the East will get Nicolau. It is what it is. The only question is when.

The MDA thing means nothing. Nicolau retains jurisdiction, yeah? Ballgame.

There are two avenues available to the East. The first, not ratifying a contract, has always been available. It was available under ALPA. The second is the LOA 93 arbitration. If that fails, your choice is Nicolau. The only question is when. That the USAPA morons pissed away millions of dollars in your money only to arrive at the same place that they were under ALPA is where the epic fail part comes in.

Assuming the CO. stays in business, our F/Os will gets theirs and our narrow body pilots will get widebody seats. Heck we don't even care if a few widebodies get sent West. Well, we do care but we won't lose any sleep over it.....but NIC.... now that's a different animal. One that needs to stay caged!!

NIIMN
NPJB

 

[Piedmont1984]

Can anyone shed light on the possibility that LCC may be offering early outs, on the order of about 200 pilots?

The driver being the costs borne by the company arising from the pairing of over/under age 60 flight crews on our international routes.

 

[HPDriver]

Can anyone shed light on the possibility that LCC may be offering early outs, on the order of about 200 pilots?

The driver being the costs borne by the company arising from the pairing of over/under age 60 flight crews on our international routes.

I doubt that would happen as it pulls cash out of the company's coffers.

The age 60 issue on the international routes is going to go to an arbitrator for sure as USAPA is looking for pay protection should the issue arise.

Believe it or not, it's considered force majeure because it's a situation brought upon by a change in Federal regulations.

USAPA won't win on that basis as well as on the costs that would be incurred pay protecting a pilot on every international flight.

 

[Captain Underpants]

Please.

A few angry FO's walking off the airplane won't even show up as a blip in the operation.

Like the 1-1-10 stickers proved, you guys are all talk.

A traditional strike would cost the company $100 million a week and a CHAOS strike around $100 million a month. A legal strike is the nuclear weapon in a labor unions arsenal. It is the tool the law grants labor to secure a fair contract.

A company has the choice of either negotiating a fair contract or trying to survive the cost of a strike. Most managements are intelligent enough to negotiate a fair contract which is why strikes are rare compared to negotiated contract settlements. Trying to impose NIC at any point would guarantee an eventual pilot strike.

underpants

 

[HPDriver]

A traditional strike would cost the company $100 million a week and a CHAOS strike around $100 million a month. A legal strike is the nuclear weapon in a labor unions arsenal. It is the tool the law grants labor to secure a fair contract.

A company has the choice of either negotiating a fair contract or trying to survive the cost of a strike. Most managements are intelligent enough to negotiate a fair contract which is why strikes are rare compared to negotiated contract settlements. Trying to impose NIC at any point would guarantee an eventual pilot strike.

underpants

First off, the company would not impose anything - the Federal court would. And any job action used to protest that would be met with fines and incarceration.

And I'll go on record here stating that the chances of us getting released are not even slim to none. Need proof? Call someone over at the APA and ask their "hard liners" how it's going.

It's not.

And a large majority of your very own pilots do not have the stomach to walk. Parker knows that, USAPA knows that, and deep down, most of the big talkers on this very board know that as well.

The Nic is coming, and it's coming soon either via a court order, merger, or new contract. And it's not far off.

 

[EastUS]

[quote name='N924PS' post='726244' date='Jan 15 2010, 09:49 AM'][quote name='Hate2fly' date='Jan 15 2010, 09:22 AM' post='726239'
Every east pilot has seat advancement with our east attrition.


Not really.

Much of the attrition comes from the middle of the East list. The age 55 or older F/O's are those retiring when that attrition kicks in (EAST US is a prime example.)

And wait until the bill comes for the damages to the West pilots.[/quote]

Your first is either based upon complete ignorance or is an intendional lie. I'm not an FO and wouldn't be personally gutted by any implementation of the nic nonsense.

Your last is worthy of response though. Given that you feel some massive bill for supposed "damages" is coming; What's the presumed incentive there for any rational person out east to vote in the nic?.....Would that be done so all might better enjoy both payments for "damages" as well as the apparent joy of seeing their coworkers' seniority slaughtered?