US Pilot Labor Thread for the week 6/6 to 6/13

[Crzipilot]

Nic,

I'm just curious, as I haven't seen the proposed terms and conditions, how do they make the situation drastically worse for you??? Straight DOH I can understand where it would change your standing quite a bit. But DOH or LOS with terms and conditions??? I would imagine that those would keep your position where you are with the flying out west. I would imagine your standing if you wanted to come over to an east base, wouldn't be quite as good. Again if it's put together DOH with a simple fence.

Furloughs, those would definately be a dicey subject. As if this fence was put up, and you had your position out west, and the company cuts flying out west, then what happens? Are furloughs handled by LOS via each side, or off a master list or what? Again I haven't seen anything out of USAPA as to how they intend to handle these situations so I don't know if my standing is better or worse with such a list. With the news coming out, I'm definately interested so if You know the terms and conditions please share it.

Another question I have is, did the West have a min. fleet or block hours in their contract prior to the merger???? Or did that come about from the transition agreement? As most of the cut backs I'm hearing about are mostly out of PHX LAS Large amount of leisure travel, and if you didn't previously have min. fleet count, then maybe what we are seeing is what would have happened to the west side minus the merger, but no way to tell that.

 

[nic4us]

Nic,

I'm just curious, as I haven't seen the proposed terms and conditions, how do they make the situation drastically worse for you??? Straight DOH I can understand where it would change your standing quite a bit. But DOH or LOS with terms and conditions??? I would imagine that those would keep your position where you are with the flying out west. I would imagine your standing if you wanted to come over to an east base, wouldn't be quite as good. Again if it's put together DOH with a simple fence.

Furloughs, those would definately be a dicey subject. As if this fence was put up, and you had your position out west, and the company cuts flying out west, then what happens? Are furloughs handled by LOS via each side, or off a master list or what? Again I haven't seen anything out of USAPA as to how they intend to handle these situations so I don't know if my standing is better or worse with such a list. With the news coming out, I'm definately interested so if You know the terms and conditions please share it.

Another question I have is, did the West have a min. fleet or block hours in their contract prior to the merger???? Or did that come about from the transition agreement? As most of the cut backs I'm hearing about are mostly out of PHX LAS Large amount of leisure travel, and if you didn't previously have min. fleet count, then maybe what we are seeing is what would have happened to the west side minus the merger, but no way to tell that.

I was considering the conditions as those proposed by Thuer at the PHX roadshow, i.e. liftime fence around PHX-LAS. and I was considering downsizing furlough. LOS has been abandoned by USAPA because they say it ain't fair it must be strict date of hire, that was the response e-mailed one of our pilots, with seniority similar to mine, by USAPA. However, I will admit that I have not seen the conditions proposed this week to the BPR, just going on what was said in the past.

I am not aware of min fleet size in our contract scope but there is min fleet in the TA, and the west is closer to theirs. I think we are at 122 and min of 120. You may remember we retired 737s ahead of schedule about 2 years ago to share the pain. But something everyone seems to be missing is even if block hours are cut from the west that does not keep the west from flying what were east routes in west aircraft, PHL-SFO PHL-SAN CLT-DEN etc. I think it would all depend on which aircraft the company wanted to keep and we are getting pretty low on 73s.

Finally, you are correct there is no way of telling what would have happened minus the merger. If AAA-AWA never happened the Industry was so dynamic I could have been using any number of diffrent call signs.

 

[Crzipilot]

thanks for the response,

As everyone has pretty much been concentrating on the upgrades and etc.....only recently have people started to look at, well what happens in the down turn. Re: the fence side would protect the attrition or growth from either side, that it's side pilots get that growth and upgarde opptys. Now with furloughs soon to be announced, how would a fence handle that situation? As to the min. fleet counts, I think you might have it backwards. Could be wrong but I think kirby said they had a few more on the west side they could pull down than on the east side. (or maybe it was a few more over the already announced returns) dunno. Did notice something real quick in your contract and that was a number of 154 airframes. Above that number they can add more 900's to the mix, I would imagine below that number they may have to take some away, didn't read it all the way through though.

Haven't missed the oppty. for the west to fly out east and fly around the east coast, just as the east has been doing with the 321's. I do believe though there is a min. block hour in the east contract, though that might have been given away, don't remember with the flurry of stuff that went out the window.

I would imagine we will continue to see the 737's go away, down to min. fleet, and replaced with the deliveries slated for the next couple of years. The wild card in this situation now I think is the 190s. Can they get them scoped out? Rupublic has had the rumor of them getting the US 190's for a few months now, (think they are licking their lips at that one) That would wipe out 15 or so aircraft with a few more on the way from the east side, or about 10% I guess.

 

[nic4us]

I did not know about republic getting 190's, and I will admit I know next to nothing about who is wholey owned etc. However I forget the exact terms but I believe some of the 190 flying is owed to the west in a form of an IOU from the arbitrated decision, but don't remember the triggering condition that would put west crews in aircraft.

 

[73320]

I think the best hope for employment in this mess is fragmentation. I cant see this airline ever operating with a combined group. It is hard to imagine people even wanting to work in a combined group with what has transpired. Perhaps the final spiral of the swirling black hole is upon us. Too bad as it could have been different. Good Luck to all!

 

[EastUS]

You are so correct, but you have no understanding of the west demographic. I am a 20 year west a320 captain. I have been captain almost 12 years. DOH puts over 250 pilots furloughed at the time of the merger with far less LOS ahead of me.

My personal notions obviously are that DOH should generally trump all else, BUT...I'd like to see actual LOS years play their proper part as well = Someone hired prior to you, but worked..say..12 years/whatever..certainly shouldn't be able to bump you, imho. It's arguable that some protections/fences/etc could serve to alleviate some concerns in that, but that certainly doesn't decide any future furlough issues. I'm just one voter, and can only assert my own opinions. What I see as the most damning element towards any, even slightly mutual, and proper compromises..is the currently wholesale lack of ANY input from the west. Meanwhile...the wheels keep turning towards an eventual end, which will otherwise be soley determined by the east group. I have not the slightest desire to see your 20 years of continuous work demeaned in ANY way, shape or form myself...so: what can we all actually do from this point forward? East overtures towards seeking west participation aren't hardly so blatantly insincere/financially motivated/etc as some out west would seek to paint them. I'd very much like to see an "us" come out of this mess...not just any "triumphant" east or west, nor any permanently opposed, little warring "tribes" within the pilot group. I'll note that mutual ill will and general animosity's been established up to olympian heights...but I don't believe it inherently imposible to find ways to work together. That last requires at least some shared attempts. Having fringe level, utter morons engaging in the types of antics noted in the USAPA suit's not exactly helping anyone at warmly reaching towards the west. Regardless of the hostility; I'd like to see some principled solutions arise from all this mess. Ok...I'll put the Pom Poms back down now

I can't say that I'm entirely displeased with some of the past year's events, in that my primary concern wasn't simply Nic, so much as finally being able to rid the place of Alpa...but...I certainly wouldn't have wished this harmfull seniority debacle on all of us here...or, anyone anywhere, for that matter.

 

[Crzipilot]

To Nic, the wholly owneds are PSA and Piedmont. PSA has about 49 Rj's, and they'd be the easiest to park, as with CHQ/Rep/TSA/MEsa and whomever else is there, there's contracts that would have to be broken. Pdt has the Dash 8's and well those are probably golden right now with gas. Republic with 190's, that's just a rumor out here, but it's been gaining strength and volume. Of course we would have to relax scope again, and would put quite a few guys outa work, and well can't see it happening. Think USAPA is going to get their first real test here soon. Big question is, what are their plans or notions to mitigate furloughs??? What can they do. Lesse, every airplane on the east side getting flexed up to 95 hours. Will there be a outcry of support to sap down to the minimum, or will there be a out cry of pain to fly the min???? Will be telling to see...

 

[sharktooth]

You may remember we retired 737s ahead of schedule about 2 years ago to share the pain.

The company retired 737's ahead of schedule about 2 years ago "to share the pain"?

Whose pain was being shared? the pilots?

Are you saying corporate deliberately accelerated aircraft retirement so that the west pilots would experience more pain?

Regardless, do you think a company should be making negative revenue decisions based on someone's "pain"? If true, I would think whatever shareholders are left might wish to have a talk with their attorneys.

 

[exB717Flyer]

The FAQ on The Hub/Wings states 175 furloughs from the West and 125 from the East. From the Transition Agreement:

"7. America West may hire new pilots if all
pilots on the US Airways seniority list have
been offered recall to US Airways or have been
offered a pilot position at America West. New
pilots hired during the Separate Operations will
be placed by their date of hire on a third
seniority list entitled “New Hire Seniority List,â€￾
will be junior to all pilots on the pilot seniority
lists of America West and US Airways on the
effective date of this Letter of Agreement, and
will continue to be junior to those pilots on the
integrated seniority list of America West and
US Airways pilots."

Seems clear to me this means the newest hires should be furloughed first regardless of which side they're from. Right?

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

The FAQ on The Hub/Wings states 175 furloughs from the West and 125 from the East. From the Transition Agreement:

"7. America West may hire new pilots if all
pilots on the US Airways seniority list have
been offered recall to US Airways or have been
offered a pilot position at America West. New
pilots hired during the Separate Operations will
be placed by their date of hire on a third
seniority list entitled “New Hire Seniority List,â€￾
will be junior to all pilots on the pilot seniority
lists of America West and US Airways on the
effective date of this Letter of Agreement, and
will continue to be junior to those pilots on the
integrated seniority list of America West and
US Airways pilots."

Seems clear to me this means the newest hires should be furloughed first regardless of which side they're from. Right?

Since the period of separate operations still exist, it will be administered separately by the individual contracts and which operation that the block hour reductions occur.

 

[ClueByFour]

Meanwhile...the wheels keep turning towards an eventual end, which will otherwise be soley determined by the east group.

Nope. It will be determined soley by the judge. The rest is window dressing.

Having fringe level, utter morons engaging in the types of antics noted in the USAPA suit's not exactly helping anyone at warmly reaching towards the west.

Having fringe level utter morons dream up USAPA was the root cause. Everything else is the snowball.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

The FAQ on The Hub/Wings states 175 furloughs from the West and 125 from the East. From the Transition Agreement:

Seems clear to me this means the newest hires should be furloughed first regardless of which side they're from. Right?

I would say that would be LIKELY, If a new combined contract is ratified by then. It appears that the goal by USAPA is to have it done in a few weeks.

The contract will determine just whom will be furloughed. It will depend on where the flying is reduced, and just what sort of conditions/restrictions are in place.

It will also depend on how many LOAs/MEDs and retirements occur.

I do not know how many pilots each side has hired since the recall of all the furloughees.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Since the period of separate operations still exist, it will be administered separately by the individual contracts and which operation that the block hour reductions occur.

Interesting thought but that's not specified in the TA.

You do also realize some guys with East seniority numbers flying on the West.

 

[ableoneable]

Since the period of separate operations still exist, it will be administered separately by the individual contracts and which operation that the block hour reductions occur.

We will have to see whether or not USAPA attempts to enforce the T.A. language.

Should they choose not to I am sure they will end up footing the bill for the salary of all those furloughed west pilots.

I know why management is not interested in following the T.A.

The 175 number for the west reaches 2004 hires who are earning a great deal more than the new hires staffing the very "efficient" 190s. (They are especially if they are flown by low paid pilots while you furlough the more expensive pilots.)

According the the company the west is overstaffed by some 100 pilots. Of course this begs the question as to why they have been continuously hiring, albeit at a slow rate, on the west.


The bottom line here is that pilots who were employed and brought a job to this merger will be on the street while east pilots who were furloughed, with no chance of a recall, will now have that west pilot's job. Sounds like a scab to me.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Interesting thought but that's not specified in the TA.

You do also realize some guys with East seniority numbers flying on the West.

Since each side cannot fly the other's airplanes, how could it be any other way?

Really? I didn't know that. Are they new hires that were placed out west? If so, I probably isn't good to be them.