US Pilot Labor Thread for the week 6/6 to 6/13

[oldiebutgoody]

As far as the DFR stuff, i'll give you a quote from a legal paper at this address:

www.iaff.org/ET/ALTS/PostConference/Handling%20Grievances/DFR/Duty%20of%20Fair%20Representation.doc

Here's the quote:

Principles of DFR – United States

U.S. Supreme Court Definition

“A breach of the statutory duty of fair representation occurs only when a union’s conduct toward a member of the collective bargaining unit is arbitrary, discriminatory or in bad faith.†U.S. Supreme Court in Vaca v. Sipes, 386; U.S. 171, 190 (1967)

Arbitrary Conduct:

U.S. Supreme Court in ALPA v. O’Neill (1991):

Court Decision: “A union’s actions are arbitrary only if, in light of the factual and legal
landscape at the time of the union’s actions, the union’s behavior is so far outside a ‘wide
range of reasonableness’ as to be irrational.â€

This means that the union has fulfilled its obligation under DFR as long as it can demonstrate
that it had a rational basis for its actions.

Now, back to my editorializing:

Looks like the DFR stuff is all BS to me. DOH, I would argue, is a time tested, less arbitrary way to merge ANY group. DOH with conditions and restrictions is MORE THAN FAIR, and certainly meets the goal of "reasonableness".

 

[luvn737s]

I have always enjoyed Boeingboys posts. It gives folks hope that someone can see the truth beyond the tribal rhetoric. His devotion is to what is right rather than joining in the chants of his former co-workers, and he was doing that long before he retired. That takes guts.

BB, is it lonely on the high road?

 

[traderjake]

With "whom" will USAPA negotiate a seniority list with? USAPA is the keeper of the list, they present the list to the company. The way the company will deal with the list is already outlined in both east and west pilot contracts.

In effect, the list is already a done deal, sue all you want, you will not change anything because your union will decide how the seniority issues are addressed. If you have an issue with the proposed seniority list based on DOH with appropriate conditions and restrictions to protect both east and west pilots, I suggest you bring that to your reps attention - that's the only place seniority issues will be addressed, not at the negotiating table.

Call your rep traderjake!

There is a list. It was presented to the company by our CBA at the time. I have a copy of it on my computer.

Any attempt to rewrite the list will have to be negotiated with the company.

Any attempt to rewrite the list will result in a DFR lawsuit that USAPA will lose.

MY rep is as delusional as the majority of my coworkers.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I have always enjoyed Boeingboys posts. It gives folks hope that someone can see the truth beyond the tribal rhetoric. His devotion is to what is right rather than joining in the chants of his former co-workers, and he was doing that long before he retired. That takes guts.

BB, is it lonely on the high road?

It's also lonely on the wrong road.

 

[EastUS]

I have always enjoyed Boeingboys posts. It gives folks hope that someone can see the truth beyond the tribal rhetoric. His devotion is to what is right rather than joining in the chants of his former co-workers, and he was doing that long before he retired. That takes guts.

BB, is it lonely on the high road?

"It gives folks hope that someone can see the truth beyond the tribal rhetoric." OK..this should be good; What is "the Truth"? People have been searching since the dawn of recorded history..and here..you have it in hand. I'm also all ears for a working definition of "tribal rhetoric"...IE: would such include mindless and baseless "shouts" of "Integrity matters"?...Just curious

"That takes guts......BB, is it lonely on the high road?" Imho..you need never fret any future suffering along those lines

 

[Phoenix]

BoeingBoy, I have been reading your posts for over a year now. You are one of those who always shows up at the fight with more ammo than the other guy. You are also an east retiree. And yet your posts have a definite pro-west bias. Do you have an axe to grind with your former coworkers, or a relative or best friend who is a west pilot? You shared a cockpit with these east men and women for years. Surely you have some sense of empathy for their predicament in the wake of the award - not to mention loyalty to them in their struggle.

You can quote law and statute, chapter and verse, all day long. But blind obedience to statute, or ALPA procedure, or legal case law does not guarrantee that justice has been done, or that injustice has been prevented.

Methinks you have lost sight of the forest.

Piedmont,

Those who finally admitted that ALPA had grown corrupt beyond repair will always enjoy a certain satisfaction at knowing ALPA is gone. To raise the ire of an ALPOid lover makes one's position on ALPA even more confident.


I hope BB never gets it.

 

[traderjake]

It's also lonely on the wrong road.

Being in the majority doesn't make you right.

 

[EastUS]

MY rep is as delusional as the majority of my coworkers.

I see sir. Your rep is delusional. The majority of your coworkers are also delusional. I think we're done here, as I'm not qualifed to give you a referral or prescribe anything.

"Being in the majority doesn't make you right." That much, I completely agree with. Perceiving the majority of those around you as "delusional"....well...that doesn't by itself, make one..ummm "right" either.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Being in the majority doesn't make you right.

But in this case, the majority happens to be right, as well as east.

 

[Phoenix]

DOH, I would argue, is a time tested, less arbitrary way to merge ANY group. DOH with conditions and restrictions is MORE THAN FAIR, and certainly meets the goal of "reasonableness".

DOH is in the Constitution and Bylaws that were advertized as part of the election process (remember how important it is to follow the process ).

If the CBL had adverized seniority based on height and the majority voted it in then the officers would be obligated to order the list according to height.

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (EastUS @ Jun 11 2008, 09:41 PM)
I call 'em like I see 'em

That I believe.

"Got a foursome lined up for tomorrow - we're supposed to get a little relief from the heat." I'm thinking the storms should provide a cool down..at least for a solid morning round. Enjoy.

 

[traderjake]

I see sir. Your rep is delusional. The majority of your coworkers are also delusional.

The proof that they are delusional is that after reading the ALPA merger policy they thought DOH was a good seniority arbitration strategy.

Checkmate. Keep on posting smiley faces, it suits you.

 

[FWAAA]

I'm not a pilot for the East or the West. I'm not cheering for either side.

Nevertheless, it's obvious that a group of represented employees can't avoid a decision rendered in binding arbitration with which they disagree simply by replacing their union. When it's all over, the East pilots will have spent a lot of money for nothin. And they'll still be stuck with the Nic award.

It's too bad that the Seeham firm has led these East pilots so astray. But it's not the first pied piper firm to fleece its clients and give them bad advice.

What I still can't believe is that some West pilots would engage in such outrageous behaviour (alleged in the lawsuit filed by the USAPA) even though the West pilots were gonna prevail as to seniority. By doing so, they may have snatched a partial defeat from the jaws of complete victory. They'll still get the Nic award, but they'll likely be out some money to pay the bills of the East pilots.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

The proof that they are delusional is that after reading the ALPA merger policy they thought DOH was a good seniority arbitration strategy.

Checkmate.

ALPA has no merger "policy". AWAPPA's lawyer himself called them "guidelines" HUGE difference. I argue that they have NEITHER, instead referring virtually EVERYTHING to third party, non airline people.

Are you playing chess, or were you delusional enough to think that ypu were going to have the last word?

AWAPPA has NO DFR case. Period! Of course anyone can file suit, and any less than reputable lawyer would take your money.

 

[EastUS]

The proof that they are delusional is that after reading the ALPA merger policy they thought DOH was a good seniority arbitration strategy.

Checkmate. Keep on posting smiley faces, it suits you.

"Keep on posting smiley faces, it suits you." Thanks...I will. What else could one properly do with a post that ties "The proof that they are delusional"....to... "reading the ALPA merger policy"!?. I can honestly begin to see where the roots of delusion might grow from now.