US ALPA/USAPA/West Thread for week of 3/22-29

[EastUS]

East,
With all due respect, just what do you think will happen to 90% of the AWA seniority list if USAPA wins and does enforce their DOH stand according to their C&BL's? Even if they create a fence, which is what they suggest, it would effectively limit us to the west.

Not necessarily...even though that's the extent of what you "brought", as has always been a loudly-trumpeted, big part of the AWA "argument". For what 2 cents it's worth; I'm a personal fan of sharing growth flying, regardless of basing, but that's merely myself speaking.

 

[Tiger 1050]

You may believe what you will, but; we all don't purely live based upon "What's in it for MEEEE!??"

Hypocrisy at the highest level!!! Well then I'll assume you are fine with the Nicolau award... Oh wait you aren't. You've told me that before... Sorry.

Well I guess you are also part of the "What's in it for MEEEE! club too... Not surpirising...

 

[Tiger 1050]

I'm a personal fan of sharing growth flying, regardless of basing, but that's merely myself speaking.

Do you believe that this will occur under the auspices of USAPA? Consider the fences I spoke of earlier. Consider what your pilot group has gained thus far.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

East;
In my humble perception, Date of Hire was removed from ALPA merger policy 16 YEARS AGO.

Correct.

In fact I believe it was at the hand of US Air representation.

Incorrect, with that said, a rep was on the board that passed the change. Just one of many voters. Don't know his actual vote though.

Speaking of what if's....what if we merged with yet another MORE senior pilot group?? Would you sing DOH then? I think not (is there ANYONE more senior by DOH than the FORMER AAA pilots?).

Yes. There are some carriers.

Guess what? DOH is NOT the basic concept of the ALPA merger policy. Further, the recent legislation now helps a relative seniority argument as a result of the AA/TWA merger. USAPA was born from a van full of pilots that were upset because DOH was not delivered as promised (Guess what further?.....Not ALPA Nationals fault!).

That is why we want out of ALPA. Actually the current legislation does not support relative either. IMO. Yes it is ALPA Nationals fault.

ALPA (while not perfect) is the best representation and provider of benefits for this group. ALPA is the means to the quickest contract improvements. Step up and help us get money for all of us.

No it's not. To both statements. As you support ALPA, I support USAPA. If USAPA wins will you step up to get money for us all?

PS...What does "Seniority is like a crew meal" mean????

Good question. Gave a lot of feedback over that one.

 

[EastUS]

Hypocrisy at the highest level!!! Well then I'll assume you are fine with the Nicolau award... Oh wait you aren't. You've told me that before... Sorry.

Well I guess you are also part of the "What's in it for MEEEE! club too... Not surpirising...

You completely miss the point. No, I'm not at ALL fine with the Nic "award". Does it effect me personally? = No. That you clearly can't imagine both to be simultaneously true, speaks volumes about your own value structure, and I'll thank you not to project the "IT"s ALL about MEEE!!!" on others as if such was justification for your own BS, or even some grand universal belief...at least outside of your own group it seems...not that we've no such individuals out east.

As for "Hypocrisy"? Please explain to all present exactly when and where "Whatever I can get's what's Right" and "DOH Sux..cuzz it just don't do nothin' for me" became elevated to the level of being some grand and noble "Principle"? Ah well..the Polls are open.

 

[Tiger 1050]

You completely miss the point. No, I'm not at ALL fine with the Nic "award". Does it effect me personally? = No. That you clearly can't imagine both to be simultaneously true, speaks volumes about your own value structure, and I'll thank you not to project the "IT"s ALL about MEEE!!!" on others as if such was justification for your own BS, or even some grand universal belief...at least outside of your own group it seems...not that we've no such individuals out east.

All about me can mean an individual or, in your case to deflect the accusation, it can also mean the group you claim to be affiliated with. You cannot claim to be an individual and espouse the very ideals that define the group. If you choose to support the group then you are subject to the arrows fired in your direction. But nice try to somehow redirect the association...

 

[EastUS]

All about me can mean an individual or, in your case to deflect the accusation, it can also mean the group you claim to be affiliated with. You cannot claim to be an individual and espouse the very ideals that define the group. If you choose to support the group then you are subject to the arrows fired in your direction. But nice try to somehow redirect the association...

I'll stick with:

"As for "Hypocrisy"? Please explain to all present exactly when and where "Whatever I can get's what's Right" and "DOH Sux..cuzz it just don't do nothin' for me" became elevated to the level of being some grand and noble "Principle"? Ah well..the Polls are open"

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Here's the funny part... never even got a Fcuck you very much from ALPA after my 12 years of accident/incident-free service...just a furlough letter..plain and simple.

And this is no ####...in the last 6 weekis..I have been blasted with letters' to "MEMBER"...

did they forget my name?..after 12 years X $60.00 per paycheck.....

please say it ain't so.....

elixir,
You know what the sad thing is about all these 'letters'? They cost $8000 per mailing! I know someone who received four today! ALPA is just slashing and burning dues. Between the $100,000 secretaries, fat cat pensions, and wasteful over-the-top snail mail campaigns, it just warms my heart knowing they will be off the property in 30 days.

Later,
Eye

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Here's the funny part... never even got a Fcuck you very much from ALPA after my 12 years of accident/incident-free service...just a furlough letter..plain and simple.

And this is no ####...in the last 6 weekis..I have been blasted with letters' to "MEMBER"...

did they forget my name?..after 12 years X $60.00 per paycheck.....

please say it ain't so.....

Hey don't feel bad. At least the company remembered you. A lot of good people probably feel/felt the same way. It could have been worse, you could have been treated like the Braniff pilots.

I flew with many ex-Braniff pilots who actually had letters terminating ALPA membership and insurance waiting in the mail box the day after BI shut down. Still wondering how that could happen? Or is ALPA clairvoyant also?

 

[ableoneable]

I'll stick with:

"As for "Hypocrisy"? Please explain to all present exactly when and where "Whatever I can get's what's Right" and "DOH Sux..cuzz it just don't do nothin' for me" became elevated to the level of being some grand and noble "Principle"? Ah well..the Polls are open"

How many times do we need to cover this ground?

To use your own phrase, "DOH Sux..cuz"; In my case it could very well mean downgrading to the right seat and finding myself junior to, and therefore on the street before, a multitude of east pilots who were furloughed at the merger date.

And before you come back with conditions and restrictions I again direct you to the east merger proposal. A stance that they have never been willing to modify, that directs that any furlough that occurs within 12 months of a recall will result in the furloughee returning to the street but conversely directs that after twelve months furloughs are to be by DOH/LOS.

Sorry but DOH is a land grab designed to make the west pilot pay the price for the east pilots' past career stagnation.

Though I agree circumstances have hosed the east group don't expect me to write you a check.

Back to the question never answered.

How can you not term an east furloughee and a west captain exchanging positions a windfall for the east pilot?

 

[Tiger 1050]

I'll stick with:

"As for "Hypocrisy"? Please explain to all present exactly when and where "Whatever I can get's what's Right" and "DOH Sux..cuzz it just don't do nothin' for me" became elevated to the level of being some grand and noble "Principle"? Ah well..the Polls are open"

Yeah that ranks right up there with "I chose to stay with a bleeding carrier, got lucky, and now I deserve any/all positives this merger brings. Why? Because that's how a real union works!"

Define "Right."

P.S. Already voted. Yep you guessed it. ALPA!!!

 

[EastUS]

I flew with many ex-Braniff pilots who actually had letters terminating ALPA membership and insurance waiting in the mail box the day after BI shut down. Still wondering how that could happen? Or is ALPA clairvoyant also?

I can't see the problem sir. Given the extremely speedy Alpa response...it's very clear to me that those unfortunate "Brothers/Fellow Pilots" were very much on Alpa's mind during their hour of need, and indeed; a very high priority for immediate assistance from Alpa.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

FYI: Not USAPA related But an interesting read.

DFR Law Suit Settlement

Comair and ASA pilots have been involved in a DFR lawsuit against ALPA for several years. This lawsuit was recently (3 months ago) settled by ALPA in a negotiated settlement. The pilots won a financial award plus the policy amendments they were seeking. The attorney representing these pilots is the same attorney that is representing the MDA pilots in their DFR law suit against ALPA.

If the negotiated settlement by ALPA is a shock to you (or is, at the least, news) then maybe you should ask yourself – why? Don’t you think that ALPA should have informed you that they were being sued and had negotiated a settlement? Don’t you think that an agency representing YOU should disclose the fact that they were in court being sued? Do you think you would even know about the MDA lawsuit is it weren’t for the MDA pilots making it public?

This Comair and ASA DFR lawsuit is considered a sister suit to the MDA law suit. Both have followed nearly identical legal paths and using the same attorney. ALPA was in court on March 7, 2008 trying to argue that the MDA lawsuit should be dismissed. This resulted in the magistrate judge ruling that the case should proceed to disclosure thus reversing a prior ruling. This gives the green light for the MDA lawsuit to proceed while they await the decision of the Federal Judge to proceed to full litigation.

But, the point is that we believe you should have been kept informed of all this legal action against ALPA. ALPA should have kept the membership informed. And you should have been especially informed when ALPA settled a case against them because it is YOUR money that they have lost. The settlement included a considerable financial award plus those items listed below. The untold costs for litigation where all paid for with your dues dollars. – YOUR dollars thrown away to defend ALPA’s admitted mistakes.

We can promise that you will be kept fully informed as the MDA lawsuit progresses. You have a right to know the results of the mistakes made by your collective bargaining agent.

The following information is provided by the attorney representing the Comair and ASA pilots. These are the facts ALPA should have reported to you:

Both ALPA's Executive Council and its Executive Board approved an agreement that provides for important and unprecedented additions to ALPA's bargaining procedures and resolves the litigations brought by the ASA and Comair pilots.

The agreement calls for significant additions to ALPA's internal policies and practices, including:

1. Mandatory pre-bargaining disclosure between mainline/express pilot groups.

2. The ability of mainline/express negotiating committees to consult with each other on proposed scope bargaining plans.

3. Review of scope goals and scope bargaining proposals by a special subcommittee of the national collective bargaining committee.

In addition to the monetary component of the settlement in the Comair and ASA cases, ALPA's Administrative Manual will be modified in certain key respects. The following language details those modifications.

____________________

Policy Additions

1. On the Effective Date, the following additions to ALPA’s Administrative Manual, Section 40, Part 1 – Collective Bargaining Committee, as adopted by the ALPA Executive Board on October 23, 2007 subject to this Settlement becoming final, shall become effective:

I. The President shall appoint a subcommittee of the Collective Bargaining Committee dedicated to scope within extended airline families (the “Scope Subcommitteeâ€), subject to Executive Council approval of appointments.

1. The Scope Subcommittee is charged with pursuing the following general goals:
a. Increasing Association knowledge on the function and operations of scope
provisions.
b. Enhancing cooperation among ALPA pilot groups within each system of mainline and express carriers in formulation of scope proposals for protection and allocation of flying within that system.

2. In pursuing its assigned general goals, the Scope Subcommittee shall:

a. Comprehensively review and analyze (in conjunction with appropriate Association resources) existing scope clauses of both ALPA and non-ALPA carriers in terms of whether they advance scope goals with respect to the preservation and allocation of flying within extended airline systems.

b. Prepare guidelines with respect to standards and principles concerning scope negotiations, including but not limited to: (i) enhancing career protections and (ii) defending against use of alter egos. Further, the Scope Subcommittee may develop independent approaches to addressing scope language or concepts without necessarily being limited to existing scope language or concepts.

c. Track industry changes in scope clauses.
d. Develop contract models for scope clauses.
e. Consult with Negotiating Committees of ALPA pilot groups within the extended system prior to commencement of negotiations, as provided in subsection 3 below.
f. Communicate with non-ALPA pilot groups within the airline family on scope issues.
g. Be available to consult with Negotiating Committees during negotiations concerning scope, and receive updates on status of scope negotiations as provided in subsection 3 below.
h. Report regularly to the Executive Council, Executive Board and Board of Directors and recommend changes to ALPA policies as it deems necessary.

3. Prior to commencement of any bargaining for any ALPA pilot group within a mainline/express system, the applicable Negotiating Committee will meet with the Negotiating Committees of other ALPA pilot groups in the mainline/express system to review opening scope proposals and how they advance ALPA’s scope goals and guidelines. The committees will work with each other to develop a consensus on proposals; if, however, they are unable to do so, subsection 3a below will apply.

a. Following consultation as specified above, and prior to submission of the scope proposal to the airline, the applicable Negotiating Committee will report to the Scope Subcommittee that ALPA pilot groups have consulted with one another and have or have not reached consensus that the planned scope proposal meets ALPA’s scope goals and guidelines; if the latter, Negotiating Committees of the other ALPA pilot groups in the system can submit statements of agreement or disagreement to the Scope Subcommittee, which can recommend changes following consultation with the Negotiating Committees involved.

b. The applicable Negotiating Committee and ALPA pilot groups within the mainline/express system will develop in conjunction with the opening proposal agreed reporting benchmarks with respect to developments in on-going scope negotiations which will require that the Negotiating Committee provide updates on the status of scope negotiations to the Scope Subcommittee. In the absence of consensual agreements concerning benchmarks, the Scope Subcommittee will determine reporting benchmarks.

4. During the period that final approval of a collective bargaining agreement is subject to Presidential review under the Constitution and Bylaws, MEC designated representatives of all ALPA pilot groups within the mainline/express system may submit comments prior to the Presidential signature concerning conformity of negotiated scope provisions with recommendations of the Scope Subcommittee and Association policy.

Thanks.

M.S.H. ESQ.

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (EastUS @ Mar 24 2008, 08:59 PM)
I'll stick with:

"As for "Hypocrisy"? Please explain to all present exactly when and where "Whatever I can get's what's Right" and "DOH Sux..cuzz it just don't do nothin' for me" became elevated to the level of being some grand and noble "Principle"? Ah well..the Polls are open"

How many times do we need to cover this ground?

To use your own phrase, "DOH Sux..cuz"; In my case it could very well mean downgrading to the right seat and finding myself junior to, and therefore on the street before, a multitude of east pilots who were furloughed at the merger date.

OK...DOH ill suits your personal wishes. Exactly HOW does that invalidate it as a Principle?..without which, imho..there can exist no functional trade/craft Unions.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

How can you not term an east furloughee and a west captain exchanging positions a windfall for the east pilot?

Because it can never happen. You're only looking at what you think justifies your position. How many non-furloughed F/O's are in front of said furloughee? I don't know and you probably don't either. So from my perspective it is a BS question filled with FUD.