US ALPA/USAPA/West Thread for week of 3/22-29

[elixir]

Actually Elixir, you did say just that, I know you didn't mean it that way, but you did blame alpa for your furlough, go back and read your post.

Well I'll take your word for it, I'm not gonna go look back, if I indeed said that, then I mispoke and owe bears96 an apology. The manner in which our union negotiated different seperation protections for different furloghees was a twist of a knife, obviously, ALPA didn't cause us to be furloughed...but some deals were made (in our opinion) that benefitted the 88-89 hire dates at the expense of the 99-2000 hire dates.

It seemed unfair, it felt unfair, it was unfair, we ALL are part of the same union, but get different deals?

Thats was what I meant to say.

 

[Leonidas]

Well I'll take your word for it, I'm not gonna go look back, if I indeed said that, then I mispoke and owe bears96 an apology. The manner in which our union negotiated different seperation protections for different furloghees was a twist of a knife, obviously, ALPA didn't cause us to be furloughed...but some deals were made (in our opinion) that benefitted the 88-89 hire dates at the expense of the 99-2000 hire dates.

It seemed unfair, it felt unfair, it was unfair, we ALL are part of the same union, but get different deals?

Thats was what I meant to say.

Well the usair pilots have a long history of selling out their young, you think thats alpa's fault? BTW the sell out continues with usapa, they just plan on selling out 1800 west pilots by attempting to staple them after the fact, it won't work mind you, but it will cost us all 10's of thousands in lost wages an benefits.

 

[EastUS]

Well the usair pilots have a long history of selling out their young, you think thats alpa's fault? BTW the sell out continues with usapa, they just plan on selling out 1800 west pilots by attempting to staple them after the fact, it won't work mind you, but it will cost us all 10's of thousands in lost wages an benefits.

DOH isn't any "staple" it's an issue of longevity, as you already know. Sigh...Yes indeed: These select and apparently very "Special" 1800 should clearly all go to the front of the line immediately....in your mind at least. "it won't work mind you" .....From the Alpa Book of FUD: "it will cost us all 10's of thousands in lost wages an benefits" Yeah..right...sure/etc. Question sir = How's things been going for nearly three years here under Alpa? I can't even find so much as a dime gained for any line pilot through their ineffectual BS...other than profit sharing for the west that is. All ALpa's accomplished is a labor group division the likes of which has rarely been seen. Contemporary ALpa's a proper case study for any seeking knowledge via "How NOT to Run a Union 101".

 

[Leonidas]

DOH isn't any "staple" it's an issue of longevity, as you already know. Sigh...Yes indeed: These select and apparently very "Special" 1800 should clearly all go to the front of the line immediately....in your mind at least. "it won't work mind you" ....."it will cost us all 10's of thousands in lost wages an benefits" Yeah..right...sure/etc. Question sir = How's things been going for nearly three years here under Alpa? I can't even find so much as a dime gained for any line pilot through their ineffectual BS. All ALpa's accomplished is a labor group division the likes of which has rarely been seen.

Nah you are just to thick headed to see anything but doh. Should a west 757 captain be furloughed before collelo? because when we merged 10 year 757 captains were common out west, back east 10 years bought you the street. You are a delusional fool if you think you will ever get doh from parker, you lunatics seem to forget that the merger and seniority list have already been completed, the west's lawyers will wipe the floor with the east. You geniouses have no clue, if you were to believe your own fairy tale that you can reorder the list at will, what happens when we merge again with an alpa carrier and the west and the new carrier decide to reorder the list again? what a bunch of clowns you guys are, the laughing stock of the industry.

 

[Leonidas]

"How's things been going for nearly three years here under Alpa?"

You are blaming alpa for the easts refusal to negotiate? you are a bigger clown than I thought.

 

[EastUS]

Nah you are just to thick headed to see anything but doh. Should a west 757 captain be furloughed before collelo? because when we merged 10 year 757 captains were common out west, back east 10 years bought you the street. You are a delusional fool if you think you will ever get doh from parker, you lunatics seem to forget that the merger and seniority list have already been completed, the west's lawyers will wipe the floor with the east. You geniouses have no clue, if you were to believe your own fairy tale that you can reorder the list at will, what happens when we merge again with an alpa carrier and the west and the new carrier decide to reorder the list again? what a bunch of clowns you guys are, the laughing stock of the industry.

you are a bigger clown than I thought.

Well Harrumph!...bit of a cheeky little bugger methinks.

"All ALpa's accomplished is a labor group division the likes of which has rarely been seen." I rest my case.

 

[Leonidas]

"All ALpa's accomplished is a labor group division the likes of which has rarely been seen." I rest my case.

Again, that accomplishment lies squarely with the usair pilots, not alpa.

 

[sharktooth]

"All ALpa's accomplished is a labor group division the likes of which has rarely been seen." I rest my case.

Again, that accomplishment lies squarely with the usair pilots, not alpa.

I would suggest that the ALPA sponsored and manipulation of the Nicholau arbitration did that.

 

[EastUS]

"All ALpa's accomplished is a labor group division the likes of which has rarely been seen." I rest my case.

Again, that accomplishment lies squarely with the usair pilots, not alpa.

That must be the true case....It's certainly always been nothing less than pure pleasure whenever attempting any search for common ground with the west.
While not even again seeking to address the overall Alpa deficiencies, as they've been covered far earlier to at least some slight extent: Any functional Union would have precluded this group strife, by way of established practices for seniority integration, versus some bogus "guidelines" that lead only to disruption and derailment of any group proceedings. How are the west-east groups of the AFA getting along? DOH apparently works fine for them, and is included in their essential charter and they aren't at each other's throats...what an amazing coincidence. A pity that such doesn't serve your selfish purposes...I'm sorry, I meant "Righteous Position" under Alpa, and an additional pity that Alpa has no functional integration method, having tossed any such aside years ago, for their own selfish purposes at Herndon,

 

[Tiger 1050]

How are the west-east groups of the AFA getting along?

That's just it!!!! They followed their prescribed process! In their case the AFA is strictly DOH. In our case it was the process that we went through... Again, you simply do not like the outcome. Sorry but that is the risk one takes in arbitration. My personal issue is not where I am on the list. I'm junior either way... But I do take exception to those who wish to replay the game simply because the end result is not to their liking.

 

[b737fo]

Umm...Huh?...What?

b737fo:"You know what they say about people who assume....Actually I am pretty aware of the MDA thing since I know someone involved in said situation. As to the threat of sinking the Nic ship, that doesn't scare me since I don't believe different conclusions in ordering the seniority list would result other then those specific MDA pilots if they have success in their legal endeavors"

I'll take points off for my assuming that you weren't aware of the list issues. I couldn't understand your evident joy in seeing the DFR success against Alpo if you realized that. Frankly; I still can't understand said joy in any case, given that you're an Alpa supporter. We differ in our beliefs as to what that litigation will likely mean for the Nic though. Once it's determined that the proffered list was indeed bogus via but the first, court addressed segment of the working "furloghees", and that camel's nose enters the tent....well...we'll all eventually see. You know someone involved in that situation?...and yet..you're just fine with them being stapled forever below "Save Dave"?..not to mention yourself of course?...now; that's true unionism at it's finest sir. Let's raise another hearty cheer for the AWA "Righteous Position": Yeeeeaay AWA-Alpa!

Ha Ha. Again more points off for more of your assumptions. First off I never said I believed that the Nic award was fair concerning the MDA pilots so I appreciate the nice comment on my unionism. Second, I am not joyous at ALPA's settlement of a DFR lawsuit because that shows that ALPA has flaws in it's representational duties. I am more interested that some people have tried to sell me on the fact that DFR lawsuits are hardly ever successful and yet the truth seems to be be quite different.

So I join you in your cheer but lets add a little "here here" for the great job of putting words in my mouth to fit your generalizations of the West!

 

[EastUS]

Ha Ha. Again more points off for more of your assumptions. First off I never said I believed that the Nic award was fair concerning the MDA pilots....

Say it's not so!! Some/ANY aspect of the Nic "award" isn't FAIR!!??? I'll leave with that, not wishing to put up any improper generalizations about the west, their "Righteous Position"/etc...much less words in anyone's mouth

 

[b737fo]

Say it's not so!! Some/ANY aspect of the Nic "award" isn't FAIR!!??? I'll leave with that, not wishing to put up any improper generalizations about the west...much less words in anyone's mouth

How should we fix this? Oh I know let's set up a union in which we can try and totally disregard our agreement to arbitration and then as a little bonus to ourselves maybe we can set it up so that guys/gals that were on furlough when this deal was consummated can use the West pilots including a lot of their captains as fodder in the event there is another downturn. :blink:

 

[EastUS]

That's just it!!!! They followed their prescribed process! In their case the AFA is strictly DOH. In our case it was the process that we went through... Again, you simply do not like the outcome. Sorry but that is the risk one takes in arbitration. My personal issue is not where I am on the list. I'm junior either way... But I do take exception to those who wish to replay the game simply because the end result is not to their liking.

The AFA didn't have any "processes" or nebulous "guidelines" to fret over. It was firmly established DOH integration...Period. "My personal issue is not where I am on the list." Although our respective positons on said list are admittedly opposite cases, I agree with your sentiment completely. It's not a question for me personally, as to whether or not I like the outcome, but one of whether or not the insanity inherent in Alpa's dysfunctional BS is at all worthy of continuance. The sum total of Alpa's brilliance hereabouts has produced nothing but bitterness, and a wholesale blockage towards our respective groups ever joining. You make reference as to "replay the game"...I can assure you that I don't see this as any "game" at any level, nor should any person's position within any workplace EVER be determined by any dammm "game". It's my firm belief that no supposed "union" can functionally exist without the essential recognition of longevity within the trade...period. In my less-than-humble opinion: Alpa's got to go. It's been my sad observation over many years that Alpa's "processes" generally finish with: "Lemmings?..line up over here and start walking toward the cliff"..."Step it up people!!!..."or things will get even worse for you!!"..."We've got a lot more eating and Harrumphing to do at our deluxe accomodations at our "Meeting"..... "Time's precious!!..Just JUMP" Well..they finally managed to push a great many people into just stepping back, taking a breath, and thinking: "Just WAIT a minute here!..My 17,18,20 plus/whatever years of service are supposed to be worth..NOTHING!!!????..I think that just maybe I won't jump this time around"......Others of us have felt little need to "jump" for Alpa for a long time now.

 

[Leonidas]

Dear Cactus Pilot,


The sky is not falling and there is no need to be afraid of the USAPA. They simply do not scare us, and worrying about them doesn’t keep us up at night. If USAPA should prevail in the upcoming election, they will very likely face humiliation and failure on a magnificent scale. We began to see USAPA as a viable threat back in August, and have been closely observing them as they have publicized their plans for us. We have also been developing what should be an effective counter-offensive. With ALPA, our hands have been somewhat tied as National sought to move things along at a pace which National calculated to benefit and appease the East. The Rice Committee, National’s delay in presenting and defending the decision, and even the Steering Committee were all designed to wear us down and force the AWA pilots to relinquish our legal rights.


The East doesn’t even understand that National was assisting them by playing their delay game with all of theses ad-hoc committees, none of which have any basis in ALPA merger policy or the Transition Agreement. It is obvious to us that our legal standing is just that strong- if National, and the East MEC, have been unable to undo the binding arbitration (and they really, really want to), then USAPA stands virtually no chance. The only option is for us to voluntarily modify the award, and your leaders have wisely chosen to decline.


USAPA is built on numerous fundamentally flawed assumptions, among which are; 1) that they will not be bound by the seniority arbitration, 2) that date-of-hire is fair because several other groups use it, and 3) that “majority rules,â€￾ is an absolute in the American Justice system, and supersedes prior contracts and agreements. They are wrong on all counts. We have been working behind the scenes to counter USAPA, and counter them we will. This is not simply a concept, idea, or idle talk, but rather a reality. We will gladly take to them to court- not maybe, but will, and soon at that.


The Leonidas LLC Board of Directors is comprised of Captain Ken Stravers, chairman of the Merger Committee, Captain Roger Velez of the Merger Fund Committee, former First Officer Kevin Horner, previously of the merger committee, and the cofounders of Leonidas LLC, first officers Jeff Koontz, who is himself an attorney, and Eric Ferguson also of the Merger Committee. We are directing our law firm with the express and sole purpose of protecting the interest of the former AWA pilots. Our lawyers do not work for free however and your continued support is required.



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