US ALPA/USAPA/West Thread for week of 3/22-29

[end_of_alpa]

Be serious sir:

" But you know what I say.." Yes, yes we all most certainly do = "You won't even get 200 cards!!" and, of course: "Send the cards..I DARE you!!"..Additionally? = "I see a west pilot shutdown!!". Trust me on at least this = We ALL know what you "say" from many months of babblings, and you're clearly the finest possible representation the West can offer for it's "righteous Position" = a child...whining ..we've "gotten that".

PS: "But you know what I say right,"..actually?..that's the Bard's prose..and it's properly: "Cry Havoc!..and let slip the dogs of war!". Keep at it sir...one day..you may actually have the slightest tinge of an original "thought". As per "war"?? = I'm hoping that you were at least a highly decorated Cub Scout,with the proper martial training inherent therein......Has it EVER, for even an instant, occurred to the most chilidsh of you west-folk that actual, deadly War is indeed rampant in other deserts?...and being paid for, on our behalf by young lives while we post here...and you pathetic little twits mouth off about "WAR"??? A few months back; I attended a Lady friend to what would have been her son's birthday..at Arlington.`She insisted on going having "celebrated" his previous birthday there as well. I was meanwhile afforded the opportunity to "visit" an old friend I had not "seen" since 1991. You utterly disgusting little "IT's ALL about ME!! BS punks wouldn't begin to even comprehend that as any, even possible personal reality for yourselves....I'll admit = I find you, your AWA "Righteous Position" and pathetic "teenaged" babblings about "WAR" to be utterly disgusting, and fully beneath contempt. Just a suggestion to you heroic members of the AWA "Army of Leonidsa/etc/ad naseum = change your childish rhetoric, so as to at least appear less foolish. This is merely a union/labor issue..GROW UP.

Hear, Hear!!!

 

[Phoenix]

Today's mail not only included my valentine from the NMB, but four -- count 'em, four! -- identical envelopes from ALPA, each with its own catch phrase on the front (like "Orange Card 24-7 Support").


Gee, if only my union had showered this much attention upon me at other critical times in my career, too numerous to mention here.


As Alanis sang in 1996, "Isn't It Ironic?"


Or as the Grass Roots crooned in 1966, "Where Were You When I Needed You?"

I do have to laugh at the volume of love mail I am receiving from ALPA.

It is sorta like the wife beating husband who is in jail and is trying to convince his wife to cancel the divorce hearing and instead swing by the jail to pay his bail so they can go out for a romantic dinner and sumpin sumpin.

But I must say that I will save my last issue of Airline Pilot. Not that I will ever read anything in it. I just like the date on the front cover. Hey honey... consider it the date the divorce was final.

 

[b737fo]

Present A330?
Good luck taking off out of PHX or LAS on a hot, summer evening with enough payload to make the east coast, much less the maritime provinces. You might do a little research about what is possible and legal before tossing something like that on a table.

As far as "pre merger career expectations", the east group would be likely to entertain expectation of west to Europe vs the west group, as the east group already has the metal. Most on the east tend to keep their "expectations" reasonable without invoking changes to the laws of physics to achieve some alternative universe in order to allow their fantasies.

Expectations vs fantasies. Might try it sometime.

So I guess in the event that A330s ever show up out West, which I too believe is a long shot, us "rookie pilots" should allow the East to come in and show us how it is done out here. After all since the East already "has the metal" then they should have all flying that involves that aircraft no matter where it occurs. The East already has the E190 "metal" too so when they eventually place some out West you better come out here to fly them also. Sorry for offending by even bringing up the subject.

 

[P51Pilot]

So I guess in the event that A330s ever show up out West, which I too believe is a long shot, us "rookie pilots" should allow the East to come in and show us how it is done out here. After all since the East already "has the metal" then they should have all flying that involves that aircraft no matter where it occurs. The East already has the E190 "metal" too so when they eventually place some out West you better come out here to fly them also. Sorry for offending by even bringing up the subject.

No. Should the company launch PHX to Europe or Asia for that matter, the flying should be protected under a condition to protect West pilots interests. Any new flying should be ratio in a condition. All old flying is fenced and after a reasonable amount of time, 7-12?, the fences and conditions expire.

 

[b737fo]

AWA320 doesn't care about YOUR job so let's ignore HIS retorts....but what about YOU? Do you want to lose your job?

Listen my friend I think AWA320 cares about my job about as much as you do. I realize after this USAPA push that it is really about watching out for oneself as both sides of the fence claim they have the moral high ground and are unifying under their own banners. On April 17 we will see who the winner is and then guess what? Either way we have a fractured group with egos and emotion speaking for logic and unionism. So I will watch out for "my own job" since that is all we have been doing as a pilot group since May anyway!

 

[nycbusdriver]

FACT: By the way, NO court will find DOH a "STAPLE JOB".

This could not be more obvious. Both pilot groups have already signed on to DOH many times with each new contract they've negotiated over the years. Here is what the AWA Pilot Contract has to say:

SECTION 22

SENIORITY

A. GENERAL
1. Seniority of a Pilot shall begin on the Pilot’s Date of Hire.

Here's what the USAirwys Pilot Contract has to say:

SECTION 22 - SENIORITY:
GENERAL

(B ) Pilots' System Seniority List

1. Seniority of a pilot shall be based upon the length of service as an airline pilot in the employ of the Company or its predecessor airline companies whose operations have been taken over by the Company.

2. Seniority of a pilot, and longevity for pay, vacation, sick leave, and retirement purposes shall begin to accrue on the date the pilot first reports to the Company's Pilot Training Program and shall continue to accrue except as otherwise provided in this Agreement.

How in the world can anyone, east or west, expect a judge to consider DOH as arbitrary or illegal when both sides have it established in their contracts? Given the extremely long history in RLA decisions, DOH is almost always the bedrock of what has been considered fair. If the west wants to spend their money fighting all this precedent AND the very contracts they've embraces for 25 years, have a great time and I really hope you have deep pockets.

 

[elixir]

I find it ironic that AFA has had this issue settled for 2 years now....why? because in their C&B...DOH is IT...PERIOD.

In Palm Springs a few years back, the AWA branch of AFA tried uncuccessfully to have the C&B changed...end of story.

If ALPA had a solid merger policy that hasn't been bastardized over the last 15 years or so, we wouldn't be talking about this now...but, as usual, ALPA has allowed itself to be swayed by sheer numbers and dues figures.

I was there when UAL and US were dancing...the infamous "career expectations" term was born...UAL FO's were convinced they'd upgrade in 5 years...why? because they were "told" so in new hire class....and they had a pipeline to the whale, and the 777....such a bright and shiny future they had...

and ALPA bought into it....hey, 9000 pilots' dues carries a lot of weight...( at least it did back then...enough to create new interpretations of merger policy)

In my humble opinion, ALPA has cowtowed to the highest "bidder" more times than not...and I don't like it. I'm not dead sure that USAPA is the ultimate answer either, but ALPA is and has been "FOR SALE" for as long as I've been flying...( 20 years in November)

 

[Tiger 1050]

You're confusing embracing such a basic concept, DOH, which is imho absolutely vital to ANY actual unionism, with some supposed desire for "retribution". "Apples and oranges" doesn't begin to approach the absurdity of "logic" inherent in your assumpton. None out east that I've spoken with are expecting to ever be made "whole", given the total extinction of generous pensions, and having suffered far too many additional injustices at Alpa's hand to note here.

So why is the nicolau unacceptable? If there is no expectation of some sort of restitution then why have we seen the land-grab antics of the USAPA crowd? Seniority Matters. Right? Well what about my seniority? Oh right, I get to keep my seat and previous expectations all while the east enjoys 400 plus upgrades, new aircraft deliveries... Nobody seems to have problem keeping all of the new for themselves over there! Glad to help out .

Frankly; it's amazingly self-centered/"It's ALL about ME!!" for any out west to even begin to imagine that such is the case. It is NOT All about YOU...period.

No it's not. You are 100% correct on this. What you believe is nothing more than spoiled children shouting for more is really a group of pilots who fully expected to be royally screwed in the merger process. We, just as you, went through this process and presented our case. The result is what you guys have a problem with. It is not the process. You had nothing to say prior to May of last year with regards to the process. Now all of a sudden we see tyranny rear its ugly hear under the guise of "Seniority Matters." Transparency was never so clear! We both took the risk of arbitration! This is the result! You simply don't like it.

It seems that regardless of how many times, and in how many ways it's explained to you folks that the anti-Alpa sentiment's NOT some purely Nic issue...you just don't get it.

Maybe for you personally. Maybe for others as well... But if you believe that the angry F/O's club is not about the Nic then it is you sir who is ignorant. In fact it is the seniority issue that has unified your greedy group of pilots! It is plain to see...

" DOH's clearly not "righteous" in the west's mind, although it's properly used "in house" for your own pilot list, has been for many years, and all out there apparently thought it just, and fully reasonable...OK. It's clearly not a serviceable notion when it no longer suits your whims and personal ambitions....fine, "fair" enough I suppose, but that's hardly any proper basis for claiming any "Righteous Position" to the contrary nowadays.

Fair enough sir, but if you could please point out just where exactly it specifically references the merging to two different pilot groups in section 22. I'll give you a hint. It does not. However you may find reference to A/M in another section... A/M talks about arbitration though doesn't it. Dang!!!

I'm curious; Had you folks picked up ATA, would you have cheerfully, as proper "Fellow Pilots" and of course "Brothers and Sisters", agreed to DOH for them?...I rather think most certainly NOT,

You are correct! We would have most certainly not blindly given them anything. We would have followed the prescribed process and we would have accepted the results. This is the difference between you and me. I was raised to believe it's how you play. Not whether you win or lose. And don't take that as condescending... I can't find a better analogy...

 

[Tiger 1050]

How in the world can anyone, east or west, expect a judge to consider DOH as arbitrary or illegal when both sides have it established in their contracts? Given the extremely long history in RLA decisions, DOH is almost always the bedrock of what has been considered fair. If the west wants to spend their money fighting all this precedent AND the very contracts they've embraces for 25 years, have a great time and I really hope you have deep pockets.

Tell me where in section 22 it specifically references merging two pilot groups? Seham told you this? Wow guys!

"Bedrock!" Well why then did Nicolau not make some sort of reference to this?

Vote in USAPA if you wish but in the end history will remember it as nothing more than a mistake. A folly!

I'll admit though that it is pointless to argue here as I have already placed my vote for ALPA and I'm sure you placed yours for USAPA...

 

[elixir]

I have no real dog in this hunt...I was a 2 year FO when I was shown the door...bottom is as bottom does, and since I was off-property during this merger, I have few claims in my opinion...

I do, however, think that a guy with 15+ years of UNFURLOUGHED and active status deserves a better shake than to be shuffled in with "Dave" or whoever was a probationary pilot at HP at the time...

That just has NO sense of ALPA unionized fairness in it...at all. The arbitor was hasty..and I havent heard a single complaint from a West pilot yet...NOT ONE.

Fair deals usually leave both complaining...

I hear crickets chirping in PHX.

I find it interesting that ALPA is quick to create new "interpretations" of it's own written policies as they see fit...and have for years, but suddenly they feel "compelled" to uphold the Nic award...as though their "hands are tied"....too funny.

Interesting, indeed.

 

[Tiger 1050]

I have no real dog in this hunt...I was a 2 year FO when I was shown the door...bottom is as bottom does, and since I was off-property during this merger, I have few claims in my opinion...

I do, however, think that a guy with 15+ years of UNFURLOUGHED and active status deserves a better shake than to be shuffled in with "Dave" or whoever was a probationary pilot at HP at the time...

You have a point. But maybe this more a result of poor planning on the part of the merger committee. DOH as the only stance and an unwillingness to move from that position proved stupid for them... Like I said in another post, we each, east and west, took the risk of arbitration. This is the result.

That just has NO sense of ALPA unionized fairness in it...at all. The arbitor was hasty..and I havent heard a single complaint from a West pilot yet...NOT ONE.

I'd say you are not listening. I'd have to believe you don't really have anyone you know out here...

Fair deals usually leave both complaining...

We are my friend! The west has not risen to level of rhetoric we have witnessed out east. I'd have to say we were better prepared emotionally for a good old fashioned screwing. But it proved to be more fair than most expected and thus the lack of outright screaming!

I hear crickets chirping in PHX.

I hear tyranny disguised as democracy enveloped in a mass psychic of mob mentality out east.

 

[CaptChill]

"Oh right, I get to keep my seat and previous expectations all while the east enjoys 400 plus upgrades, new aircraft deliveries... "

All I've heard is the West didn't want our attrition... Well those 400 upgrades in the East WERE DUE TO ATTRITION... SO YOU NOT ONLY WANTED TO LEAP OVER 17 TO 20 YEAR ACTIVE PILOTS, YOU WANTED OUR ATTRITION AS WELL... WHO'S CALLING WHO GREEDY!


"Now all of a sudden we see tyranny rear its ugly hear under the guise of "Seniority Matters."

Just because you don't like the fact that the East pilots have more than had their fill of ALPA, have suffered under their "tyranny" forever, and have finally taken a stand and said enough is enough; just because the East pilots have sent in over 3,200 calling for a representational election, which is taking place as I write; every single thing that USAPA is doing and the NMB is doing is absolutely legal and being done according to the RLA.

You can call this process "tyranny" until you are blue in the face, but it doesn't change the fact that the tyranny you refer to is actually called 'DEMOCRACY"..

 

[elixir]

You have a point. But maybe this more a result of poor planning on the part of the merger committee. DOH as the only stance and an unwillingness to move from that position proved stupid for them... Like I said in another post, we each, east and west, took the risk of arbitration. This is the result.

I agree...and if ALPA had a iron clad track record of sticking to policy and/or decisions, I'd agree...but it does not, and has not. They have sought a "middle-ground" to keep all dues-payers' happy before...but not now....in that, I am curious.


I'd say you are not listening. I'd have to believe you don't really have anyone you know out here...

Wrong...I happen to live in PHX...I flew at Mesa under the J4J deal for 2 years before deciding to either leave or slit my wrist...I know several guys out here....
I can't wait to try to commute to PHL from PHX...(I asked for PHX...and was told the 7 out of 20 slots is the end of the deal...does that make sense to you?)

We are my friend! The west has not risen to level of rhetoric we have witnessed out east. I'd have to say we were better prepared emotionally for a good old fashioned screwing. But it proved to be more fair than most expected and thus the lack of outright screaming!


I hear tyranny disguised as democracy enveloped in a mass psychic of mob mentality out east.

I agree in principle with much of what both sides argue...there's the problem. Look, all I want to do is finish out my time...it's all I've ever wanted. I'm pigeon-holed as an airline pilot...I wish I wasn't. I agree with the principle of "it is as it always has been..." but, that is indescribable at ALPA, because "it" changes all the time, based on whatever ALPA deems appropriate at the time.

That is EXACTLY why the East guys feel empowered to challengs this whole thing. And ALPA brought it on themselves.
If ALPA had held steadfast to cut and dry policy in the past, the lawyers would be poorer, pilots richer, and fighting would be minimized.

I have no fight with West...I got hired where I got hired at the time. And now I can look forward to "fences" from USAPA...permanent ones...or frosty reception from the west while I commute to the East, because ALPA has stopped awarding the other 13 HP slots to furloughee's....

New hires will come West, but I can't...thanks again ALPA.

It's all bull#### to me.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Well those 400 upgrades in the East WERE DUE TO ATTRITION...

You're at least the second person that seems to believe that the ex-ATA 757's and E-190's didn't create upgrade opportunities - it was all attrition generated. Either that, or you're one of the many who believe that any airplane flown from an East base - regardless of when it may arrive - somehow "belongs" to the East. Either mistaken or feel entitled - take your pick.....

Jim

 

[EastUS]

EastUS:"I'm curious; Had you folks picked up ATA, would you have cheerfully, as proper "Fellow Pilots" and of course "Brothers and Sisters", agreed to DOH for them?...I rather think most certainly NOT,"


[quote name='Tiger 1050' date='Mar 24 2008, 02:23 PM' post='585199'
You are correct! We would have most certainly not blindly given them anything. We would have followed the prescribed process and we would have accepted the results. This is the difference between you and me. I was raised to believe it's how you play. Not whether you win or lose. And don't take that as condescending... I can't find a better analogy...
[/quote]

So..let me see if I have this right sir: Your group would have been intent upon maximizing personal gains through "the prescribed process" regadless of whom you were to be merged with, and since DOH wasn't prescribed outside of your own list....it would always have been just a case of "What's in it for me?"/etc?. Well...that certainly seems like a reasonable and fair way to play any "game".

"This is the difference between you and me. I was raised to believe it's how you play" I wasn't. I was taught that life's not some game, that other people do truly matter, that their experience, sacrifices and contributions have value, and what's important is striving to do what's Right to the maximum extent possible in life. As for: "Not whether you win or lose." That notion sir, is only appropriate within the very safest of enviornments, and is an ill-suggested philosophy for useage elsewhere. No matter. None of this will change any west-east perspectives, and it's up to the voters...finally

CaptChill: "You can call this process "tyranny" until you are blue in the face, but it doesn't change the fact that the tyranny you refer to is actually called 'DEMOCRACY".." Amen