US ALPA/USAPA/West Thread for week of 3/22-29

[Phoenix]

The NMB ballot arrived today.

With all of the "union" mailings I have received over the years, It seemed such an odd thing to receive a letter regarding union matters where I was able to read the content and not feel like I had just been accosted by a sweaty lurch flashing me with his trenchcoat lined with "quality, original Rolex replicas".

Congratulations to the men who prevailed against crushing odds to secure for the pilots a once in a lifetime opportunity.

 

[AWA320]

This could not be more obvious. Both pilot groups have already signed on to DOH many times with each new contract they've negotiated over the years. Here is what the AWA Pilot Contract has to say:



Here's what the USAirwys Pilot Contract has to say:



How in the world can anyone, east or west, expect a judge to consider DOH as arbitrary or illegal when both sides have it established in their contracts? Given the extremely long history in RLA decisions, DOH is almost always the bedrock of what has been considered fair. If the west wants to spend their money fighting all this precedent AND the very contracts they've embraces for 25 years, have a great time and I really hope you have deep pockets.

Good good good! Now read us the part covering mergers would you???? Read us the part of the merger policy that YOU had 17yrs to change and DIDN'T, read us the part that where you said PRIOR to the arb that you in whole or in part refuse to honor the BINDING ARBITRATION. Please do read on and inform. Now lets wake up and join reality shall we? Your motives are crystal clear and WILL BE MET with opposition. There is no way that you will, be it thru court or your cult union usapa will succeed in your quest to bring harm to the west operation without damaging the company as a whole. Your choice, though we expect no intelligent decision out of the east nor have we seen any yet...

 

[EastUS]

Your motives are crystal clear and WILL BE MET with opposition.

Whoopie. "Fill your hand Pilgrim"

PS: There isn't any "quest to bring harm to the west operation", but hyperventilate away if it suits you.

 

[AWA320]

Whoopie. "Fill your hand Pilgrim"

PS: There isn't any "quest to bring harm to the west operation", but hyperventilate away if it suits you.

Really?? No???? Your very actions stink of your true intent and was made clear by the clowns that ran out of PHX when confronted with simple but important questions!! DOH comes out of your pours like water from a hose and you have siked yourself into believing that it's fair to staple us to the bottom of your list. You scream "that's our attrition" when the truth is that without the west you had no attrition at all except more to the J4J positions. You had every opportunity to come up with something fair prior to going to arbitration but DOH is all you could ever see. Now YOU have the balls to say we deserve a second bite at the apple and at your expense!! You people are without honor and completely untrust worthy. USAPA can kiss our collective behinds as this fight will be to the detriment of USAir and tha suits most of us "rookies" just fine...

Later, BROTHER!!

 

[b737fo]

Whoopie. "Fill your hand Pilgrim"

PS: There isn't any "quest to bring harm to the west operation", but hyperventilate away if it suits you.

Then I am sure you will gladly open up the seats on new aircraft and new routes flown because of this merger to both East and West since neither place had those "pre merger career expectations". So when does the West get the IOU on 757 and E190 positions?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Tell me where in section 22 it specifically references merging two pilot groups? Seham told you this? Wow guys!

"Bedrock!" Well why then did Nicolau not make some sort of reference to this?

Vote in USAPA if you wish but in the end history will remember it as nothing more than a mistake. A folly!

I'll admit though that it is pointless to argue here as I have already placed my vote for ALPA and I'm sure you placed yours for USAPA...

I'm not arguing how USAPA and Seham will proceed. Maybe we'll get to see; I hope so.

I'm merely making the point to the westies, who decry DOH as untenable and unfair, that they are dreaming if they think fighting DOH as being unfair will hold water in any court of law. The precedent is against them and their own contract is against them if they try to make that argument to a judge.

 

[elixir]

And that is my point as well...DOH is and has been part and parcel at every airline...for about oh...what now? 75 years according to ALPA?...and suddenly for the East to underscore it's indisputable chronology in this case only to have some arbiter make a decision that EVEN ALPA is uncomfortable with (based on their actions..or lack of..."seperate but equal"...are you fcucking kidding me?..)...is nothing short of a travesty...

There will be no legacy for ALPA to leave for the up-and-comers in the business...first it's this...then it's that....oh, well....we're "all in this together..."

It's sad...it's nothing more than the manifestation of what had to be ALPA's ultimate undoing...

You cannot serve multiple masters' fairly when those "masters'" either compete with each other..(as ALL airline's do..) or worse yet...MERGE....then what?

I think we see just how it winds up....quite predictably, I'd add....

 

[Tiger 1050]

"Seniority is like crew meals, fully negotiable" - Scott Theuer / USAPA founder

"The Nicolau Award can conceivably be revived, if LCC merges with another ALPA carrier" - Lee Seham USAPA Lead Counsel.

"We will negotiate a DOH seniority list. There is no plan B" - Stephen Bradford / USAPA Interim President.


All great, intelligent statements!!! NOT!!!

C'mon! You really expect these guys to be anything but a bad memory in a couple of years?!?!

 

[elixir]

As I said earlier...I'm not fully advocating USAPA here...read my earlier post...however, you don't want to start quoting snippets from ALPA leaders do you?.....

Because we could overwhelm this server with the bull#### that ALPA has tossed out too....

And there we have it. I'd also point out that ALPA set the "negotiation" ball rolling years ago, instead of sticking to a fast and hard policy...about ANYTHING.

I have carried an ALPA card since 1996...and I have never been able to have a conversation about ALPA "policy" with any certainty....wonder why?

It has been "negotiable" ever since I got my card...in ALL areas. So, for some USAPA dude to be quoted as calling something "negotiable" means not a fcucking thing to me...ALPA has done it for years.

These arguments will go nowhere, because the founding principles of this business and that of it's union..ALPA, have gone by the way of litigation...in lieu of POLICY for too long.

It's a monster that I fault ALPA for creating.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Listen my friend I think AWA320 cares about my job about as much as you do. I realize after this USAPA push that it is really about watching out for oneself as both sides of the fence claim they have the moral high ground and are unifying under their own banners. On April 17 we will see who the winner is and then guess what? Either way we have a fractured group with egos and emotion speaking for logic and unionism. So I will watch out for "my own job" since that is all we have been doing as a pilot group since May anyway!

And THAT is why ALPA is finished in ANY event. Case closed.

 

[end_of_alpa]

You have a point. But maybe this more a result of poor planning on the part of the merger committee. DOH as the only stance and an unwillingness to move from that position proved stupid for them... Like I said in another post, we each, east and west, took the risk of arbitration. This is the result.



I'd say you are not listening. I'd have to believe you don't really have anyone you know out here...


We are my friend! The west has not risen to level of rhetoric we have witnessed out east. I'd have to say we were better prepared emotionally for a good old fashioned screwing. But it proved to be more fair than most expected and thus the lack of outright screaming!


I hear tyranny disguised as democracy enveloped in a mass psychic of mob mentality out east.

I keep hearing this "tyranny of the democracy" BS. You either have a democracy or you don't. If this statement reflects the choice of ALPA or ALPA what would you say? Kind of like an election where you have two candidates...Hitler or Hilter. You mean THAT kind of "democracy"?

Tyranny of the Majority....that's where end limits like citizens "civil rights" or "cruel and unusual punishment" comes into play.

Tyranny of the Majority....that's a new one.

 

[end_of_alpa]

"Oh right, I get to keep my seat and previous expectations all while the east enjoys 400 plus upgrades, new aircraft deliveries... "

All I've heard is the West didn't want our attrition... Well those 400 upgrades in the East WERE DUE TO ATTRITION... SO YOU NOT ONLY WANTED TO LEAP OVER 17 TO 20 YEAR ACTIVE PILOTS, YOU WANTED OUR ATTRITION AS WELL... WHO'S CALLING WHO GREEDY!


"Now all of a sudden we see tyranny rear its ugly hear under the guise of "Seniority Matters."

Just because you don't like the fact that the East pilots have more than had their fill of ALPA, have suffered under their "tyranny" forever, and have finally taken a stand and said enough is enough; just because the East pilots have sent in over 3,200 calling for a representational election, which is taking place as I write; every single thing that USAPA is doing and the NMB is doing is absolutely legal and being done according to the RLA.

You can call this process "tyranny" until you are blue in the face, but it doesn't change the fact that the tyranny you refer to is actually called 'DEMOCRACY"..

I'm glad someone else said it for a change.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Really?? No???? Your very actions stink of your true intent and was made clear by the clowns that ran out of PHX when confronted with simple but important questions!! DOH comes out of your pours like water from a hose and you have siked yourself into believing that it's fair to staple us to the bottom of your list.

I heard about those simple but important questions. Nice try on a lot of them. The efforts on some of the people asking them to paint the leadership into a corner was admirable. It didn't work. But keep trying if it makes you feel better. When we get elected, the answers you seek will be voted on by the membership. Don't like the C&BL's of USAPA? Present your case to have them amended before the vote. I have already made some proposals that I hope will be addressed soon. You can keep trying to think this is a one issue union, for some of us you are so far from reality that it is not worth repeating over and over again. You will never understand my/our disdain for ALPA. I still love the term "stapling". DOH is not stapling.

USAPA can kiss our collective behinds as this fight will be to the detriment of USAir and tha suits most of us "rookies" just fine...

Works for me except ALPA can kiss mine.

Later, BROTHER!!

Back at 'Ya, BROTHER!!

Interesting word use. "Siked"???? You don't have to lecture me on what you meant. A good spell checker would go a long way.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Good good good! Now read us the part covering mergers would you???? Read us the part of the merger policy that YOU had 17yrs to change and DIDN'T, read us the part that where you said PRIOR to the arb that you in whole or in part refuse to honor the BINDING ARBITRATION. Please do read on and inform. Now lets wake up and join reality shall we? Your motives are crystal clear and WILL BE MET with opposition. There is no way that you will, be it thru court or your cult union usapa will succeed in your quest to bring harm to the west operation without damaging the company as a whole. Your choice, though we expect no intelligent decision out of the east nor have we seen any yet...

Voting FOR USAPA or voting AGAINST any tentative agreement with NICOLAU....you could equate that to being the same thing couldn't you?

In either case you can't have in what you can't vote in.

Management (Kirby) get's it. You have "ALPA" binding arbitration but you can't use it if you can't get it to pass contract ratification.

Who budges?

The one's with the most votes. Get it? It is what ALPA National and BOTH MEC's simply DIDN'T KNOW to tell you!

And you get MAD because the East simply utilizes it's LEGAL rights to protect itself from a "gambling" junket that provided a huge windfall to West pilots.

Merger policy ONLY works if the MAJORITY votes it in. PERIOD. Otherwise you either renegotiate (which the West simply WOULD NOT DO) or we vote in a new collective bargaining agent to resolve the stalemate.

What's so hard about that?

So blame EAST pilots for voting whom THEY wish to represent ALL OF US to break the deadlock.

You're a "cheeky" fellow.

 

[elixir]

Not unlike UAL's complaints to ALPA when AAA and UAL were in talks...UAL didn't like the way things would inevitably size-up...based on the seniority (DOH) policy...

And then, almost magically, "career expectations"" was born....why? because UAL dues-payers' outnumbered AAA by almost 2:1....

I rest my case.