US ALPA/USAPA/West Thread for week of 3/22-29

[b737fo]

2) I'm curious though: What's the proper protocol for dealing with "street punks" puttting up USAPA=Scab/Hey East pilots../etc, graffitti/stickers in public jetways/work group areas/etc? Would:"He should have been fired for this act and anything less than that is unacceptable..." seem reasonable for that?

3) If a person contrives an avatar with the clear intent of offending others within the same work group; Should such an individual be fired?

2) When you come up with the answer let us know so whoever peppered those jetways in the B concourse in PHX with USAPA stickers can join the "street punks"

3) No intent on offense but am I fired yet?

 

[Elevation]

Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 9:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Fwd: Insurance, Aeromedical and Line of Credit


xxx,
The other side is starting to beat us up. This is an election. One of USAPA's weapons in this election is Harvey Watt. We have no ammunition. We need product!

The "perfect is the enemy of the good." Please light a fire under your ING guys or whomever is going to supply this product and tell them that the other side is beating us because we cannot put contracts on the table.

Thanks


Steve Bradford

 

[luvthe9]

It is clear to anybody paying attention that USAPA's only plan is to purchase a date-of-hire seniority list from Doug Parker with a cost netral contract. COST NEUTRAL, I WANT DOUG TO IMPOSE LOA 93 ON THE WEST

 

[AAA73Pilot]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AWAPPA Newsletter
Issue #3
March 28th, 2008
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AWAPPA'S CURRENT RECOMMENDATIONS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ø Upon receiving NMB voting instructions in the mail, cast your vote FOR ALPA.
Ø Ensure that you are receiving AWAPPA email updates.
Ø It is unnecessary to cancel your ALPA dues check-off at this time. Check back for more information on this.
Ø If you received a USAPA Membership Application or Dues Check-Off form in the mail, do not complete those forms.
Ø Do not volunteer for USAPA committee positions so long as they are not a bargaining agent.

While I agree that everyone should vote. However, I recommend you cast your vote for USAPA.
Just remember that non-membership does have its drawbacks in any future decision making direction of the new union. Willful non participation will have a detrimental affect on our careers as it pertains to future negotiations with the company. Trust me, if Parker tries to take advantage of all pilots, which I think he will, you only have have yourself to blame. Facing reality will only lower the expectations on what we can achieve. So to quote many west post posters "You will only have yourself to blame".

You can't have it both ways. Participation on committees is necessary to achieve balanced representation. You want us to name the west reps yet at the same time you don't want anyone to participate. How can that be? So each time you post your FUD I will always raise the BS flag if you accuse us of not wanting your participation or input.

BEHIND THE SCENES OF USAPA INSURANCE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is clear to anybody paying attention that USAPA's only plan is to purchase a date-of-hire seniority list from Doug Parker with a cost neutral contract. There is no back up plan, and there are few if any plans to address any of the other representational needs of pilots (and particularly the needs of America West pilots). There has been little thought given by USAPA to other representation matters. Obviously, a union whose slogan is "Seniority Matters" is willing to accept the loss of important representational protections in pursuit of the ultimate goal of stapling 90% of another pilot group to the bottom of the seniority list.

Don't believe us?

Consider how USAPA has responded to the "noise" (USAPA's term) that ALPA has made in regards to insurance products. Insurance might seem like a small component of union representation to some, but over 2500 pilots East and West use ALPA insurance products. Because of the overwhelming concern of those pilots, ALPA sent out an informational mailer about insurance in mid-February. Prior to that mailer, USAPA had done little to address that issue.

The behind the scenes work by the volunteers is speculation on your part. What you dismiss as lack of leadership or "Problems" as a reason for not supporting USAPA is disingenuous at best. How we achieve to replace the aeromedical or insurance products doesn't really matter. What only matters is that Apr. 17th these products will be available as soon as USAPA is certified as the new bargaining unit. As for the little work prior to ALPA's "Noise" is complete and total BS!! I know for a fact the volunteers were working on replacing all that you say back in October and November. With that said, there wasn't a major hurry to sign up replacements until we had an election scheduled. Even then it was only brought to the forefront as ALPA, and you for that matter, attempted to make an issue out of it. Problem solved! What is your next FUD piece?

While I have no doubt that you believe in what in you publish has a bearing on the vote, the simple fact that your blatant attempt to spread FUD only reaffirms my conviction that ALPA is a waste of time and energy.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

It is clear to anybody paying attention that USAPA's only plan is to purchase a date-of-hire seniority list from Doug Parker with a cost neutral contract. COST NEUTRAL, I WANT DOUG TO IMPOSE LOA 93 ON THE WEST

What the west guys don't understand, and ALPA for that matter, is signing the TA without parity was and still is a major mistake. Even after the award came out and the breakdown of JNC negotiations the west attempted to use LOA93 as "Leverage" against the east to restart those negotiations. Welcome to my world. In order to move forward, if you were Parker what would you do? Start with the west contract or the east LOA93? If I were a west pilot I would get my financial affairs in order so as not to make the same mistakes some of our pilots had to go through. Reality of a divided pilot group is about to strike home. Either under ALPA or USAPA.

What the west doesn't understand about the east is the differences between economic solutions and quality of life solutions. One is short term, the other lasts a career.

 

[b737fo]

You can't have it both ways. Participation on committees is necessary to achieve balanced representation. You want us to name the west reps yet at the same time you don't want anyone to participate. How can that be? So each time you post your FUD I will always raise the BS flag if you accuse us of not wanting your participation or input.

The AWAPPA group is recommending to not volunteer for a comittee "so long as they are not a bargaining agent". Actually makes a lot of sense to me. Why in the world would I support the CBA that I pay dues to represent me but yet volunteer for an organization whose philosophy I don't agree with and that does not yet officially represent anyone? :blink:

 

[AAA73Pilot]

The AWAPPA group is recommending to not volunteer for a comittee "so long as they are not a bargaining agent". Actually makes a lot of sense to me. Why in the world would I support the CBA that I pay dues to represent me but yet volunteer for an organization whose philosophy I don't agree with and that does not yet officially represent anyone? :blink:

Bingo!! Excellent post on ALPA's double speak. On the one hand you're absolutely correct, USAPA doesn't represent anyone yet. However, some posters in here have tried to make an issue out of not naming west reps or committee members. You can't have it both ways..... again.

So the next time a west poster raises the issue I will again raise the BS flag. I am hoping after the election that some west people will step forward to join us in representing all pilots. It may or may not happen, but I am hoping.

 

[EastUS]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AWAPPA'S CURRENT RECOMMENDATIONS

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ø Upon receiving NMB voting instructions in the mail, cast your vote FOR ALPA.

Ø Ensure that you are receiving AWAPPA email updates.

Ø It is unnecessary to cancel your ALPA dues check-off at this time. Check back for more information on this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AWAPPA Website

In summation: " It is unnecessary to cancel your ALPA dues check-off at this time." Und be shtanding by fur more "orders". I love independant thinkers.

"We'll share with you what we've learned about some of the newly appointed pilots who will be responsible for providing you fair, unbiased representation if USAPA becomes the bargaining agent." Oh DO bring on a smear campaign. We wouldn't know for certain that we were dealing with devout Alpoids if that was missing
BTW: It's actually possible to post even the most "important" messages without taking entire pages on this thread to do so. See listings under: How to avoid almost entire inches of blank space between even the most vital of directives and propoganda missles from the bunker/etc.

 

[EastUS]

2) When you come up with the answer let us know so whoever peppered those jetways in the B concourse in PHX with USAPA stickers can join the "street punks"

3) No intent on offense but am I fired yet?

Neg "firing" from my perspective as being anything the least bit appropriate. That was my intended point. I only personally become "offended" when there's anyone who's "feelings and sensibilities" are so downright precious that they think it appropriate that any who tread upon them should be fired. I consider the stickers, from either/any/all to be childish BS, and a waste of time and effort. What irked me was someone/anyone suggesting that THEY have some presumed "authority" to even suggest that anyone be fired for offending their precious little sensitivities. I'm a wholesale, and life-long fan of actual Freedom of Speech myself, regardless of whether or not I like what I hear/see from anyone.

 

[EastUS]

They might very well win, but we all lose, especially the east, just some more self inflicted pain that the east thrives on.

"we all lose" Yeah..sure thing. I hate to again bring this up, but; your "cover" has already been blown by your own words:

Leonidas: "Nope, I want the captain seat and contract that the east has held hostage, I want to make up for the last 3 years of stagnation on the west, due directly to east actions, I want to make up for contractual gains the east stymied, and most of all I want every single east pilot to pay for it." It sounds to me that there's a tad bit of "self inflicted pain" going on out there via your noble "Nic or nothing!!/Take NO east pilots prisoner..have no mercy!!..just take their seats and seniority!!" stance.

"3 years of stagantion" out west..not to mention the absolutely horrible bit of 400 "upgrades" out east versus 40 out west. Yup...you're clearly and sincerely concerned with the entire pilot group, and I do find it very noble that you're now, magically concerned with, and suddenly strangely familiar with the term "we"....as if you've the tiniest concern for the east in ANY way, shape or form. We may all now consider the AWA-Alpa BS Flag to be raised to the highest possible point on the tallest possible pole.

"I want the captain seat.....and most of all I want every single east pilot to pay for it." The AWA "Righteous Position" and true purpose personified. Ah yes....there's inspirational Alpoid "Brotherhood" and "unionism" exemplified at it's finest.

 

[autofixer]

Not to mention, if this is the West's position, they are convicting themselves with their own words. We see that they can only grow through the gross injustice of Nic. Doug said that they were also on the verge of BK and downsizing prior to the merger. Now they are exactly were their "career expectations" put them; actually better, considerign Doug said they would have downsized. But thanks to Nic, the West expects and is demanding their windfall. The falacy of the ALPA merger policy (or lack there-of) could never be more appearant than now.

I know I will never convice the West, as they still have pipe dreams of the windfall in their minds; however, I hope other airlines in simular circumstances, ie, NWA, see the falacies of ALPA and its disasterous merger policy and dump them before it is too late.

 

[EastUS]

... I hope other airlines in simular circumstances, ie, NWA, see the falacies of ALPA and its disasterous merger policy and dump them before it is too late.

I think a fitting question to be "ALPA? =WHAT merger policy!?" It's fully clear to the dimmest possible observer that Alpa's "merger policy" amounts to nothing more than some shouting, followed by guaranteed-to-happen arbitration/crap shooting...with the resulting ill will between pilot groups being a given. It'd sure seem like they/the other airlines do have serious misgivings about this BS "policy". The NWA/Delta dance didn't exactly proceed along smoothly...and despite all industry shouting to the contrary; we don't see mega-mergers actually happening of late. Thanks yet again Alpo, for ALL your "help" to the line pilots everywhere over the years.

Nic clearly established the bizarre limits of how truly insane the results of such a "policy" can be.` It's equally obvious that the bar's also been set as for the true value of the fantasized "United Alpa Pilots" BS..."I want the captain seat.....and most of all I want every single east pilot to pay for it." With "National Brotherhood" like this, as so lovingly established and nurtured by Alpo; who needs ANY "outside enemies"?

The Alpo boys had best figure out ways to improve the efficacy of their FUD, since all real-world, "experimental" results indicate them to be full of naught but total BS...and..the award for best joke of the decade goes to ALPA, for it's fabulous punch line from their on-going, and truly hilarious stand-up sketch and tap dance about seniority = ""Our ALPA MEC’s plan for your future is working now by providing you with valuable firewalls of seniority protection. Leaving ALPA will discard those critical protections forever." ..."critical protections"!!?? Puhleeaze ..outside of any/all published FUD; where does one actually find those?

 

[fr8tmastr]

The west showed its true colors way back when they tried to have the pilots that came from the WOeds removed from the seniority list. Not placed at the bottom below everyone else, but REMOVED! That is a huge difference and very telling of the kind of unionism they believe in.

How ALPA East and West treats its junior members is reason enough to show them the door.

 

[Phoenix]

.. very telling of the kink of unionism they believe in.

Was that a Freudian slip brought about by the trauma of the Shoap Goat video?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Doug said that they were also on the verge of BK and downsizing prior to the merger. Now they are exactly were their "career expectations" put them; actually better, considerign Doug said they would have downsized.

Ironic that nobody on the East side ever mentions what else Doug has said - that "old" US was facing liquidation without the merger. If Doug's words are going to carry so much weight, what do the numerous mentions of East liquidation say for East "career expectations" at the time? BTW, Lakefield basically said the same in BK court filings, which I've quoted before.

Seems that the West has shrunk, although they had airplanes scheduled for delivery when the merger was announced. Meanwhile, East had no airplanes scheduled for delivery and was scheduled to shrink further, but hasn't only because of airplanes that were on no delivery schedule when the merger was announced.

Now that the post-merger fleet "dust" has settled, seems like some East "oracles" are more than happy to say "This was the plan all along so that flying is ours" while using the mere possibility of West BK/shrinkage to proclaim that it was obviously going to happen and the West pilots should just be happy not to be on the street.

Jim