US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 5/19-5/26 READ THE FIRST POST

[john john]

Now that ALPA is gone, these same people want us to just forget about it and go on with our lives. They tell us that we would be wasting our time and money and that the people looking into the pension were not involved in the termination, so shouldn't be involved in the investigation. In fact, they tell us that only they have the expertise to do a complete investigation"
November 2004 management filed in bankruptcy court to terminate the pension plan of
CWA agents frozen pension plan, along with the pension plans of the flight attendants and the mechanics Management could not explain how CWA agents frozen plan (which they claim was $270 million under funded) could have deteriorated when it was fully funded at the time it was frozen.
CWA meet with actuaries for the plan to try to get to the bottom of that question.
the out come of the investigation was never make known

 

[boeingplt]

Here's the problem. First I'm an East pilot.

Second, the overwhelming probability is that liquidation of USAirways would have killed any long awaited upsurge in attrition.

We've been over this ground a thousand times but here it is again. We don't have to guess what would have happened to either airline, we know what did happen and as neither group of pilots had anything to do with it
the only sensible way to go is to assume both airlines would have stayed the same size for the purpose of protecting the only thing you can measure, attrition, and share all new flying.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Enough said. Let us all know when this has finally run it's full course....however many months or years that takes.

We do not know what remedy the Judge will put before us. It could be weak or it could be strong and immediate. Either way, you do understand that what ever the remedy is will be active the moment the Judge orders it until the end of time as we know it OR the 9th Circuit grants an emergency stay, right? So you see, your "take your time" attitude may not result in the "separate for ever" ops you so dearly long for...

Just a thought...

 

[Tiger 1050]

The fiction which people like Underpants, Snoop and Busdriver live in is so far from reality. Their collective hopes are now resting on a one in a million Hail Mary which probably will never come to fruition, yet these three in particular stick to the same, tired arguments of a biased, senile old man causing the improprieties against them. It seems all Judge Wake has done is taken the spotlight in their fiction story away from George Nicolau- the victim mentality sure hasn't changed. And their inevitable triumph is just right around that corner- it is so close. Riiiiiight. None of these three, however, seem to understand their game is just about over.

It is simply stunning to hear the rebroadcast of Seham's words. Especially with such confidence! Lemmings that are running toward the edge all while watching those ahead fall off. I'm curious though... IF they are so much older, wiser and experienced, why doesn't is show in their actions? Oh well...

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Here is a link to some factual information relative to the current labor dilemma taking place with the US Airways pilots: Just the Facts

You will not find any prevarication, sensationalism, or rhetoric here.

 

[hp_fa]

hp_fa,

The facts are not the same.

The ripeness argument is different between the two cases because of the Transition Agreement and the fact that the company accepted the Nicolau award. The Addington case is a DFR for failure to comply with the result of the completed process as outlined in the Transition Agreement for an integrated seniority list claiming abuse by the majority over the minority.

Therefore, usapa’s intent to circumvent the Nicolau award through the joint contract negotiating process through a DOH proposal, as the plaintiffs contend was the intention of the founders all along, is a breach of DFR, because of the inherited obligation by usapa through the Transition Agreement to uphold and defend the award, and thus made the case ripe. It was the DOH proposal or the intent itself to negotiate away from the Nicolau award, not whether or not a cba had been implemented with a change to the Nicolau which makes the case ripe and different from Breeger.

The fact patterns are different because of the Transition Agreement.

This is why usapa was unsucessful in their quest for a Motion to Dismiss on the issue of ripeness and denied leave for filing for a Motion of Summary Judgement on the same issue.

First off I may have confused what arguments were offered by USAPA in Breeger with the Empire/Shuttle matter. I know that I had read on these boards that USAPA was taking a contrary position in another matter than what they were offering as arguments in Addington.

As to the Court not allowing a Motion for Summary Judgment ("MSJ") by USAPA, I believe that the Court's reason at that time was the amount of time that a Motion for Summary Judgment takes to process from the time of filing until it is fully briefed and ready for a ruling by the Court. Judge Wake was aware that this was a hybrid case seeking, in part, an injunction and that it has priority over other judicial matters. He had originally intended it to go to trial in late January or early February, but he granted some delay for discovery to occur. However, a MSJ would have probably delayed trial until the July/August time frame and the Court was not inclined to delay trial for that additional amount of time. That is how I read that particular issue.

 

[hp_fa]

I cant connect your dots between assessment and fragmentation, nor your interest.

Snoop,

My fragmentation reference is simply that USAPA, rather than being one combined voice, is potentially becoming separate East & West in nature. I will grant that one of the potential separations will be by an injunction and somewhat outside the control of the members. However, the second issue is seemingly by choice and that is the investigation of past acts that don't involve the West, nor even your current employer. (Remember that the current US Airways had nothing to do with the past US Airways which failed to survive the last bankruptcy.)

 

[prechilill]

I'm curious though... IF they are so much older, wiser and experienced, why doesn't is show in their actions? Oh well...

I guess it is human psychology- the way we are wired. A drowning person will thrash and flail in the water until they lose consciousness and I think what we are seeing is a union thrashing and flailing until it eventually expires. These last updates have been telling as to the diabolical mindset of USAPA and demonstrates they have absolutely no ideals grounded in reality.

 

[Megasnoop]

Snoop,

My fragmentation reference is simply that USAPA, rather than being one combined voice, is potentially becoming separate East & West in nature. I will grant that one of the potential separations will be by an injunction and somewhat outside the control of the members. However, the second issue is seemingly by choice and that is the investigation of past acts that don't involve the West, nor even your current employer. (Remember that the current US Airways had nothing to do with the past US Airways which failed to survive the last bankruptcy.)

Oh come on, hp, "potentially?" We"re already split, even back to the last year of ALPAs iron-fisted rule. Once the Nic came out, we fractured. Fact of life, hp, made worse by Wests jumpseat denials and flip-offs. "Nor even your current employer?" Remember Love Canal? Occidental ate the past acts when they bought Hooker 20 years after the pollution stopped. Thats the way the legal system works, hp, or did your legal training miss that? I think we all know US Airways did survive, just as predicted by West merger attorney Freund in August 2005.

And I still dont see your angle. Spending all that time in court, all the time on this chat. Either you bored, are totally narsisistic enjoying the spolight you created for yourself or your shilling for the company or the west or ALPA or any and all of them.

Snoop,
As I said I almost agree with you on this one, but I have 1 question. Will the West members get to vote on your assesment for pension loss inquiries?

Ni4, I assume so. I hope so. If we can vote as a whole on your age 58, then you have a right to vote on our retirement investigation assessment, although I hear West wont be assessed. Im into the democracy thing. By a 11-3 vote, we voted to appeal DFR. We"ll play it out. We cant appeal until his remedy is released. Just like the pension investigation (if it passes), we need the closure on the DFR. If we lose, its over and Nic is in any TA put out for vote.

On subject voting, Wakes got some real thinking to do. The TA does not say how the vote is done, only refers to ALPA merger policy. He says ALPA merger policy rules. Ok, then each "side" gets to vote separately and veto the other side. That makes the TA harder to pass. But if he allows a combined vote, hes in violation of ALPA merger policy. Why important? A combined, no-veto vote plays into the hands of the company making it easier to pass a marginal contract, for sure every west member in good standing would vote NIC, regardless of the rest of the TA. The question is, can Wake essentially write a remedy that contradicts his jury instructions?

Wakes got a history of reversing himself in the same case. Last year he ruled against a defendant and then 7 months later reversed himself in the same trial. Kind of a John Kerry, “I voted for funding the war before I voted against itâ€￾ in reverse. Weâ€￾ll see if he pulls a 180 here, sooner or later. Hes got a legal snag and a legal "out" that he just might have to use, but Ill let you sweat what it is. Mr Snoop

 

[HPearlyretiree]

And I still dont see your angle. Spending all that time in court, all the time on this chat. Either you bored, are totally narsisistic enjoying the spolight you created for yourself or your shilling for the company or the west or ALPA or any and all of them.

The paranoic stage is kicking in, its all a conspiracy!

Why can't the East just deal with the fact that they lost? Binding means Binding, and an agreement is something you are supposed to keep. The complete and utter avoidance of responsibility is amazing. Its not a difficult concept and any 9 people, off the street can see it (and they did).

East, you lost, you lost big, get over it. You lost when the court decided to hear this case (something USAPA said would never happen), you lost when 9 jurors found against you. You will lose if you try to appeal.

Its not rocket science, USAPA was formed to circumvent the east's agreed upon responsibilities. It was a craven and cowardly act, and, predictably, it didn't work. No amount of navel gazing or conspiracy theories or character assassinations is gonna change that. Now, you are trying to make HP FA part of "them"?

Seriously, get into reality, its been a week and a half, USAPA lost, big time. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can move on.

 

[Waketurbulence]

I was always in row two on the right side behind the USAPA pilots. I didn't speak with them either except for perhaps a hello. I didn't, and still don't, know their names either.

I think their names were Moe, Larry and Curly....

 

[EastUS]

We do not know what remedy the Judge will put before us. It could be weak or it could be strong and immediate. Either way, you do understand that what ever the remedy is will be active the moment the Judge orders it until the end of time as we know it OR the 9th Circuit grants an emergency stay, right? So you see, your "take your time" attitude may not result in the "separate for ever" ops you so dearly long for...

Just a thought...

I'd be the first to agree that the future's forever and always unknown territory. As always; we can all just take our best guesses and proceed along with good old time and events. Quite clearly; our respective best guesses vary, which matters not at all as to how things will develop, nor does anything said here. If there's abundant great glee to be found in the constant thrashing of west pom poms in the meanwhile...well...enjoy.

 

[prechilill]

Its not rocket science, USAPA was formed to circumvent the east's agreed upon responsibilities. It was a craven and cowardly act, and, predictably, it didn't work. No amount of navel gazing or conspiracy theories or character assassinations is gonna change that. Now, you are trying to make HP FA part of "them"?

Very succinctly stated. It is becoming comical how some on here portray this situation as a mere difference of opinion, when in fact what this Nicolau situation boils down to is one side trying to slither out from underneath their obligation to run a fair union. Nothing USAPA has done has been a success and all they have done is ratchet up the rhetoric to levels which are becoming embarrassing for the piloting profession. How can anyone on here equate HP-FA as being part of a conspiracy? I guess he can be added to the distinguished list of USAPian targets like George Nicolau and Neil Wake. Unbelievable and certainly of low quality to be throwing punches at HP.

 

[Phoenix]

And I still dont see your angle. Spending all that time in court, all the time on this chat. Either you bored, are totally narsisistic enjoying the spolight you created for yourself or your shilling for the company or the west or ALPA or any and all of them.

Probably related to the UCT prophet of old.

 

[Phoenix]

USAPA is currently under the political control of the East pilots and has a duty of fair representation to all USAirways pilots.

If USAPA fails to follow its constitution there will be a DFR. I should have been a lawyer.