US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 5/19-5/26 READ THE FIRST POST

[Metroyet]

that's why we're in court in PHX, soon to be SFO.

Prediction:

Unless the Appellate Court fast tracks this case just like Wake did, USAPA will be dead and buried before there is any resolution...just a stain on the history pages of trade unionism.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Prediction:

Unless the Appellate Court fast tracks this case just like Wake did, USAPA will be dead and buried before there is any resolution...just a stain on the history pages of trade unionism.

Do you think you have the numbers to get another election? To win another election?

Theoretically, you can start collecting cards now, since they don't expire for a year and the 24 month interval between elections has already started.

Give it your best shot, but if ALPA is on the ballot, don't waste your time.

 

[Metroyet]

Give it your best shot, but if ALPA is on the ballot, don't waste your time.

Agreed. True from both coasts.

 

[wopr21]

Here's a shockingly good idea. Everyone keeps the job they brought to the merger.

East F/O don't jump ahead of West Captains because they worked for a stagnant company.

That's exactly what happened.

With that logic you must think that a senior east f/o or junior capt will be here for ever.
There is something called retirement which you forget to acknowledge.
And just the fact that we are older means the east will retire first and the west will own the airline.

What happened is in the past

wopr

 

[Megasnoop]

I have absolutely no dog in this hunt but I despise criminal activity, especially if the alleged criminal is one who owes a fiduciary responsibility.

Hp, flame throwers like Metro, Lynyrd and Luvn pick up anything USAPA says or does and spin it even though they dont know what they are talking about. Weve got to know the story on losing a multi-billion pension fund. Remember the UAL ESOP fiasco 1991-1994? Heres a link,
http://www.scripophily.net/ualincdelaware.html
Im not saying our situation even approaches what happened there, but read it and youll see why we are distrustful and why this begs for an investigation. As I remember, there was a book written about the dealings in the UAL ESOP. Just to peak your interest,

Fees paid to advisors on both sides totaled $145 million for all four ESOP plans. An internal pilots' union report by Thomas Sullivan (U.S. Attorney for northern Illinois), revealed that "pilot union leaders made secret agreements in 1989 and 1994 to pay millions of dollars in fees to lawyers already on the union's staff or on retainer. They did not disclose these fees to the rank and file."

That Sullivan report said that Roger Hall, the United-ALPA-MEC chairman, had authorized a payment of $2 million to Charles Goldstein, who was the union's own staff lawyer, but he did not reveal that to his board. The report also concluded that Hall and Goldstein had violated union rules, and many of United's pilots openly complained that the advice from Goldstein could hardly have been objective if he knew the ESOP had to be successful in order to receive that $2 million fee. Union leaders agreed to let Goldstein keep $750,000 of that $2 million, after he threatened a lawsuit. Hall's predecessor, Frederick Dubinsky, also did not reveal to the rank and file that he had authorized a payment of $375,000 to Goldstein after the failed ESOP attempt of 1989. Both Hall and Dubinsky denied they ever did anything wrong, but Hall did resign upon request of the pilot union board.

The Sullivan report also uncovered a $4.12 million "success" fee to be paid to Cohen, Weiss & Simon, which had been receiving hourly billing payments from the union for its work on the ESOP buyout. Again, that fee wasn't common knowledge until after the ESOP was completed. Once that became known, Cohen, Weiss & Simon agreed to return the entire $4.12 million.

Now, maybe you can see why we need some closure on this. ALPA forced us to use the same ALPA attorneys that got a $4.12 M “successâ€￾ fee. With this kind of money available for the taking, can you blame us for wanting a second look at who got what or did what? Im not accusing anyone of anything. This may be a total bust. Im just saying weve got to follow this through. $240 or $280 assessment really is worth the peace of mind. Metro, Lynyrd, Luvn, etc. dont have enough history in this industry to understand what we went through.

Here’s another link on the

http://www.benchmarkalert.com/newsletters/...56736/25234.htm

Heres what the PBGC said “PBGC Reaches Pension Settlement with United Airlines,â€￾
http://www.pbgc.gov/media/news-archive/new...05/pr05-36.html

Hp, the West flame throwers will never get it. Weve been there. Snoop

 

[Megasnoop]

Snoop, Actually I am almost on your side of the age 58 arguement but not quite. Changing the age to 63 conforms to the new age 65 law and upholds the intent of the contract ( rather than pay for training the company will put it into your check if you have less than 2 years to go). Where I lose you is that it should have been voted on by West members, not membership at large, because it only effects West members. We have a better understanding of the ramifications of the contract and other provisions it also effects. USAPA's constitution says something to the effect of " a vote by the effected pilots".

We"re all one big happy family, Nic4. There is no way constitutionally that USAPA we could allow you a separate vote. Hey, wed had enough guffaws already. We didnt need another one (tongue in cheek, Nic4). Ah, that learning curve. Sometimes I just want to (nevermind!). And to all who think we had some trading leverage that we blew? Fighting Intent, Federal Law, Supreme Court rulings, EEOC, the Company? Even $30M times zero still comes up to be ZERO. Snoopo

PS: If we ever agree 100% on anything, I hope that at least we can agree that ALPA never needs to come back on property. 4-6 years from now, youll have the majority. Being independent from a union that has built-in conflicts of interests is the way to go. ALPA screwed the pooch on both our houses, all in the name of holding on to those dues. Are you tracking with me? Snoop

 

[ClueByFour]

If such questions can not be reasonably and realistically answered by any out west (enough nonsensical/hysterical rantings/promises/predictions/etc have previously posted from there, to no effect whatsoever)...well...then realize that all you're doing here is to shore up your own morale, and effecting absolutely nothing.

That's the exact reason (and outcome) that USAPA represents. The symmetry is stunning, no?

 

[hp_fa]

Hp, flame throwers like Metro, Lynyrd and Luvn pick up anything USAPA says or does and spin it even though they dont know what they are talking about. Weve got to know the story on losing a multi-billion pension fund. Remember the UAL ESOP fiasco 1991-1994? Heres a link,


Hp, the West flame throwers will never get it. Weve been there. Snoop

Hi Snoop.

I understand being angry and I think I understand, to at least some extent, the point you are trying to raise. I also believe that I read something that the special assessment is being charged to East folks only, so that the West is not being asked to pay for this, even in the form of agency fees for non-members. If that is all correct, then I understand that this is an East-only affair. Please correct me if that synopsis is in any way incorrect.

Assuming, for the basis of this discussion, that my synopsis is substantially correct what you propose, as a practical matter, once again potentially fragments USAPA. This fragmentation would potentially exceed the fragmentation that Judge Wake may order in the form of granting West folks status quo ante as far as voting rights in conjunction with voting for any future CBA, until a CBA is agreed to by both East and West while under single banner of the sole bargaining agent in the form of USAPA.

I am wondering about the practicality of both the pursuit and the potential reward that may be at the end of that investigation. For example, as a prefatory question, what happens to any USAPA East members that may not choose to participate in funding their $280.00 share of this proposed action? Also, is there currently any theory that ties any potential wrongdoing to ALPA National, or are the current suspects past East members of ALPA and therefore the pursuit is essentially after your own members and third-parties that were retained or utilized by East ALPA officers and/or members?

Please feel free to instruct me where I may be in error. Once that is done I may have thoughts about where this may be headed.

Respectfully....

 

[luvn737s]

So, in your estimation, those interested parties that suffered the essential theft of nearly or well over a million dollars each should just forget about it entirely, rather than even take ANY investigative action at all? The west ox was not gored by mighty Alpa in this case, so, I suppose you feel it more reasonable to obsess on unknowable future court processes per the appeals/etc than try to do anything at all about the east pensions, even by way of inquiry.

Sounds more like the woman suing for spilling hot coffee on herself. Poor us, no one would save us from ourselves!! Why hold us accountable for our own mistakes!!! ALPA done us wrong!!!

Actually it gets a bit tedious when that's the only message the east can spew. Has anyone considering doing something productive going forward?? Spinning it's wheels in court and chasing down everyone it feels has wronged them has not produced a nickel in benefits to the pilots. And it never will.

The heads of USAPA are unable and unwilling to lead. It takes a far different ability to actually produce results than it does to crank up rhetoric.

I would like to have some sympathy for the loss the east has incurred, but in the absence of real justice over their tyranny, I am a bit calloused to their plight. A fellow pilot losing a lifetime in savings is a tragedy, but no more so than what USAPA has done to, and will continue to do to all US pilots. Don't mistake fear mongering for defending you. When you really need their defense, you'll all too soon see the disappointing difference.

And if the justification for gutting the west contract is that they are the bargaining agent for all the pilots, then why have an assessment that only benefits a subset of that same pilot group? Why make up the rules as you go along? Where is the First String Varsity team at USAPA and why are the east pilots settling for PeeWee backups?

 

[luvn737s]

I'm honestly curious on this. Just how many "West members" did you even have enrolled as such at that time?
Should those very, very few have had the mandate for all of your people out there? No matter really. As for:
"We have a better understanding of the ramifications of the contract and other provisions it also effects."...I'm sure you do. It's a true pity the entire west focus has been nothing more than to attack the union at every level, and complain loudly afterward, whenever things didn't/don't go as you would wish. Perhaps some larger degree of actually rational involvement would/could benefit west interests. I realize that's just a ridiculously radical notion on my part...

Please list for us the rational acts of USAPA that have yielded real benefits to the pilot group at large. Feel free to go back to day 1.



The indefensible actions and attitudes of the entire slate of USAPA leadership lead directly to the lack of west participation as a disenfranchised minority group. The west's response is about the only rational action to be seen in the past 3 years. If you really desire west participation in your F/O club (and I'm pretty sure I know the honest answer to that - nonetheless) why not work to fix your union and get leaders who produce results and build a union that folks want to be a part of.

 

[Phoenix]

This is exactly what the transition agreement provides for. Separate operations until a CBA (collective bargaining agreement) The West job stock you owned has lost significant value vs the East Stock value of a job.

Now how about we negotiate before your stock has no value.

Welcome to the jungle.

Trader is.

 

[EastUS]

It takes a far different ability to actually produce results than it does to crank up rhetoric.

No argument. Have fun with the continuous rhetoric

 

[beachboy]

It's so sickening I want to vomit up my hamburger on Memorial Day. I swear every last one of you deserve what you get. I am so sick of this ####, I think it should be banned from this site. Honestly there is nothing new it's just like vomiting in a bowl, eating it only to only vomit it up again. SHUT UP! Let the court system work or come at a settlement. But by all means SHUT UP. I wish Judge Judy would take the case. God would you both be humbled.

 

[beachboy]

On that note!!!!! Since you really got my pants in a twist. Why don't you all pause and think about the men and women serving to protect us. Instead of worrying of who will be Captain Dork on the 330! This is what his weekend is all about right? You all sound so stupid and petty at this point. Sick.....truly sick. Stop your endless nonsense and thank a service member for what they do. It goes a long way and it's more meaningful than this battle. I hope my brother comes back from the Air Force alive. Don't let me get in the way of your sand fight.

 

[EastUS]

I hope my brother comes back from the Air Force alive.

As do all of us I'm sure. Having "been there/done that", as well as having a step son with two tours; Those now in harm's way are in my prayers daily. You're way out of line here. If this thread troubles you = don't read it.