US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 5/19-5/26 READ THE FIRST POST

[RIASU_upe]

An example is when I heard Seham first mention status quo ante, which surprised the heck out of me coming from him. I mentioned all of that as soon as I got home and to my keyboard after court that evening.

HP,

Sorry to hijack your reply to nyc, but I just have to ask why you were so surprised? This is actually a very clever manuever by Seham. It effectively eliminates the one disadvantage USAPA had the day they were voted into office - a TA with an attached NIC no longer required separate ratification. There is significant risk for USAPA to put out a TA with a combined east/west pilot voting block. If all west pilots vote for the TA, only 600-800 pilots from the east would be all that is needed to pass the TA. With separate ratification, the east can once again regain the veto leverage they need to drag this out indefinately. Basically, that proposed Seham remedy alone is the anti-verdict to the DFR.

upe

 

[flybynite]

Okay...we're going to have a change up on subjects.

As A F/A I'm miffed. I had a situation today that I blame on a couple of stupid pilots.

I had to pick up a 757 that was being ferried in from BOS. There were no f/a's on this ferry. I got the ac and discovered that none of the galleys had been secured for take off or landing. Needless to say...the galleys dumped their contents all over the floors and the carts were out and blocking the exits. Nor had any of the doors been armed.

I talked to the pilots before they ran off and asked them what happened.....and they were clueless . I asked them point blank why they didn't secure the galleys before take off and they were like...."We're we suppossed to?" and I said "Of course you were!". And then they ran off and said "I'll keep that in mind next time."

Leaving me to clean up the unbelieveable mess front and back of this aircraft.

I'll also say that my Captain was so humiliated by his fellow pilots he got on his hands and knees and helped clean the horrible mess in the galleys. Hell of a guy. He didn't have to do that. Bless his heart.

Now...who do I call?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Yeah, because you certainly aren't biased....

As for an even approach? HP FA noted that he saw that USAPA was losing in court, and that the jurors seemed to be siding with the plantiffs.

And, oddly enough, he was right. Imagine that. I guess he should have just lied about what was going on in court? Oh, wait, that is what the USAPA newsletters were for!

Yeah....but I'm not suggesting that I write the book.

And given the blatant bias of the judge (there, I said it) and the instructions to the jury that basically told them how to find (there, I said that, too) how could there not be another outcome?

Enjoy your contract. If the 9th Circuit doesn't take on this case, you will not have east ratification of any joint contract for at least a decade.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Okay...we're going to have a change up on subjects.

As A F/A I'm miffed. I had a situation today that I blame on a couple of stupid pilots.

I had to pick up a 757 that was being ferried in from BOS. There were no f/a's on this ferry. I got the ac and discovered that none of the galleys had been secured for take off or landing. Needless to say...the galleys dumped their contents all over the floors and the carts were out and blocking the exits. Nor had any of the doors been armed.

I talked to the pilots before they ran off and asked them what happened.....and they were clueless . I asked them point blank why they didn't secure the galleys before take off and they were like...."We're we suppossed to?" and I said "Of course you were!". And then they ran off and said "I'll keep that in mind next time."

Leaving me to clean up the unbelieveable mess front and back of this aircraft.

I'll also say that my Captain was so humiliated by his fellow pilots he got on his hands and knees and helped clean the horrible mess in the galleys. Hell of a guy. He didn't have to do that. Bless his heart.

Now...who do I call?

The pilots are responsible on a ferry flight to secure the galleys. It's buried in the Flight Ops Manual somewhere.

The least those guys could have done is clean up their mess.

Call USAPA (877-332-3342) and at ask to talk to someone on "Professional Standards."

Or, if you're really into it, talk to the chief pilot in BOS about it. He can arrange to have a bit more hassle added to their lives.

 

[usabusdriver]

As to the Court not allowing a Motion for Summary Judgment ("MSJ") by USAPA, I believe that the Court's reason at that time was the amount of time that a Motion for Summary Judgment takes to process from the time of filing until it is fully briefed and ready for a ruling by the Court. Judge Wake was aware that this was a hybrid case seeking, in part, an injunction and that it has priority over other judicial matters. He had originally intended it to go to trial in late January or early February, but he granted some delay for discovery to occur. However, a MSJ would have probably delayed trial until the July/August time frame and the Court was not inclined to delay trial for that additional amount of time. That is how I read that particular issue.

hp_fa,

The time argument by The Court was due to lack of persuasiveness of the ripeness issue raised in the defendant’s motion for leave to file. The Court concluded it would be imprudent to delay the trial in order to provide time to file and argue for a summary judgment without a compelling argument by the defendant in support of a summary judgment, as the ripeness and the subject matter jurisdiction issues were decided following the Motion to Dismiss.

 

[nic4us]

Its business.

Now that I understand.

On the age 58. If it happened the way you say then I am in agreement with you. However, it could have been good business to have said to the company, "hey you want this thing changed, the law changed, and now we have a situation causing a problem for some of our pilots, how about we take a vote to change it from 58 to within 2 years of retirement and in return you lay off our guys who called in sick for superbowl Sunday".

Now that sounds like "making an offer they could not refuse".

 

[hp_fa]

HP,

Sorry to hijack your reply to nyc, but I just have to ask why you were so surprised? This is actually a very clever manuever by Seham. It effectively eliminates the one disadvantage USAPA had the day they were voted into office - a TA with an attached NIC no longer required separate ratification. There is significant risk for USAPA to put out a TA with a combined east/west pilot voting block. If all west pilots vote for the TA, only 600-800 pilots from the east would be all that is needed to pass the TA. With separate ratification, the east can once again regain the veto leverage they need to drag this out indefinately. Basically, that proposed Seham remedy alone is the anti-verdict to the DFR.

upe

RIASU

No problem on joining the chat....

Why was I surprised? The truth is that I didn't think he was smart enough to do it. I thought it was a very smart thing to do. It remains to be seen if the Court goes along with that, but I thought it was a smart move.

(Now, your next question will probably be what causes me to think he isn't smart. My response is that he either misreads much law to arrive at his opinions of what the law says or he is betting his entire firm on this client. Either way, from my perspective, it isn't smart.)

Anyway, there is your response and feel free to ask me questions. I will at least promise an honest answer from my perspective, even if it is "I don't know".

 

[aquagreen73s]

Yes I am.

No you're not and it's pretty obvious, too.

Granted, after the damages trial the east pilots will likely have to pay all west attorney fees

If you mean the entire cost of litigation, then you're wrong as awards never cover the entire cost. But, you'd have to have some legal expeience to know that.

The west notion that the Company wants to get a combined contract anytime soon is nonsense.

If you were actually a west pilot, then you'd know that nobody in the West thinks the company wants a joint contract anytime soon. Gotcha.

The Company is banking (literally) this dispute to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars.

Tell us something we don't know.

There is no pending merger,

What...are you a member of the Board of Directors too!

Why do you think they requested mediation under the TA and rejected USAPAs overture with the NMB?

Because they're happy with the separate ops.

You're not fooling anyone.

 

[hp_fa]

hp_fa,

The time argument by The Court was due to lack of persuasiveness of the ripeness issue raised in the defendant’s motion for leave to file. The Court concluded it would be imprudent to delay the trial in order to provide time to file and argue for a summary judgment without a compelling argument by the defendant in support of a summary judgment, as the ripeness and the subject matter jurisdiction issues were decided following the Motion to Dismiss.

Isn't that close to what I suggested, that timing was the overriding consideration by the Court at that point in time? You are correct that the ripeness issue had already been argued to the Court and apparently the Court was very satisfied that it had ruled correctly on that issue.

 

[usabusdriver]

And given the blatant bias of the judge (there, I said it) and the instructions to the jury that basically told them how to find (there, I said that, too) how could there not be another outcome?

NYC,

But that is the essence of the argument that has been back and forth between the pilot groups. Lee Seham created the complex logic sequence that was used to conclude that usapa was not bound by an obligation from the prior representative to incorporate the Nicolau award in the joint contract. It seems that the judge concluded that the law did not support the premise(s) that Lee laid out, so be it.

 

[traderjake]

given the blatant bias of the judge

"The judge was bias"

"The arbitrator is senile old man"

What next? The Appeals Court doesn't understand the law?

What do you call a person who won't consider the possibility he's wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence?

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Okay...we're going to have a change up on subjects.

As A F/A I'm miffed. I had a situation today that I blame on a couple of stupid pilots.

I had to pick up a 757 that was being ferried in from BOS. There were no f/a's on this ferry. I got the ac and discovered that none of the galleys had been secured for take off or landing. Needless to say...the galleys dumped their contents all over the floors and the carts were out and blocking the exits. Nor had any of the doors been armed.

I talked to the pilots before they ran off and asked them what happened.....and they were clueless . I asked them point blank why they didn't secure the galleys before take off and they were like...."We're we suppossed to?" and I said "Of course you were!". And then they ran off and said "I'll keep that in mind next time."

Leaving me to clean up the unbelieveable mess front and back of this aircraft.

I'll also say that my Captain was so humiliated by his fellow pilots he got on his hands and knees and helped clean the horrible mess in the galleys. Hell of a guy. He didn't have to do that. Bless his heart.

Now...who do I call?

Flyby -

I would suggest going right here: Link. Someone WILL have to provide an answer for you, and there will be no chance that this could get swept under the rug.

As pilots we are required to preflight the entire aircraft if no cabin staff is on board.

It just makes me sick that there are folks out there doing stuff like this. They're a black eye on the profession.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

"The judge was bias"

"The arbitrator is senile old man"

What next? The Appeals Court doesn't understand the law?

What do you call a person who won't consider the possibility he's wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence?

Next thing you know, they will say its an invalid decision because there was a US flag with yellow fringe on it! (a defense that some tax protesters have actually attempted)

The conspiracy theories are up and running, logic and reason have been put to bed, you see, its all a conspiracy, Judge Wake is a Mason, and a Bilderberger, and the Illuminati are against the east because only they know the top seekrit chicken salad recipe.....

 

[cleardirect]

Next thing you know, they will say its an invalid decision because there was a US flag with yellow fringe on it! (a defense that some tax protesters have actually attempted)

The conspiracy theories are up and running, logic and reason have been put to bed, you see, its all a conspiracy, Judge Wake is a Mason, and a Bilderberger, and the Illuminati are against the east because only they know the top seekrit chicken salad recipe.....

Sorry no yellow fringe on judge Wake's flag. I was wondering about that.

 

[cleardirect]

Oh come on, hp, "potentially?" We"re already split, even back to the last year of ALPAs iron-fisted rule. Once the Nic came out, we fractured. Fact of life, hp, made worse by Wests jumpseat denials and flip-offs. "Nor even your current employer?" Remember Love Canal? Occidental ate the past acts when they bought Hooker 20 years after the pollution stopped. Thats the way the legal system works, hp, or did your legal training miss that? I think we all know US Airways did survive, just as predicted by West merger attorney Freund in August 2005.

And I still dont see your angle. Spending all that time in court, all the time on this chat. Either you bored, are totally narsisistic enjoying the spolight you created for yourself or your shilling for the company or the west or ALPA or any and all of them.

ALPA boogeymen everywhere.

Ni4, I assume so. I hope so. If we can vote as a whole on your age 58, then you have a right to vote on our retirement investigation assessment, although I hear West wont be assessed. Im into the democracy thing. By a 11-3 vote, we voted to appeal DFR. We"ll play it out. We cant appeal until his remedy is released. Just like the pension investigation (if it passes), we need the closure on the DFR. If we lose, its over and Nic is in any TA put out for vote.

What you hear is correct. No west assessment. I believe I warned all of you about an east only assessment back in April. I was scoffed at. Oh well maybe you will start to believe me sometimes. Democracy, tyranny whatever.

“We voted to appeal DFR†My, my are you one of the BPR members or just trying to elevate your status a bit? If you are a BPR member that would explain a lot.

“If we lose, it’s over and the Nic is in any TA put out for vote†At least that reality is starting to take hold. Just as a reminder. The ruling stands as is unless the appeal is granted. So once we get the ruling. The Nicolau is in any TA. We do not have to wait until the appeal is done some 18 months from now.

On subject voting, Wakes got some real thinking to do. The TA does not say how the vote is done, only refers to ALPA merger policy. He says ALPA merger policy rules. Ok, then each "side" gets to vote separately and veto the other side. That makes the TA harder to pass. But if he allows a combined vote, hes in violation of ALPA merger policy. Why important? A combined, no-veto vote plays into the hands of the company making it easier to pass a marginal contract, for sure every west member in good standing would vote NIC, regardless of the rest of the TA. The question is, can Wake essentially write a remedy that contradicts his jury instructions?

OK please educate me. I did a word search in the ALPA merger policy. I used ratify, veto, vote, separate. Nowhere in there did I see where is says anything about separate contract votes or that either side gets a “vetoâ€. Could you point out that section and specific paragraph where the ALPA merger policy says that?

Another assumption from you and the east pilots in general. The west pilots are going to look at the contract in total before voting. My guess is that it takes three tries before it passes.

Please tell us what jury instructions do you think that judge Wake is going to contradict?

Wakes got a history of reversing himself in the same case. Last year he ruled against a defendant and then 7 months later reversed himself in the same trial. Kind of a John Kerry, “I voted for funding the war before I voted against it†in reverse. Weâ€ll see if he pulls a 180 here, sooner or later. Hes got a legal snag and a legal "out" that he just might have to use, but Ill let you sweat what it is. Mr Snoop

So scary, so mysterious. Has the BPR found a smoking gun? “A history†would that be one case or several cases? Are you now going to find fault with someone for admitting and correcting an error? So critical. To bad usapa or Seham can not admit when they are wrong. How about letting the rest of us mortals in on the usapa insider info. The same info paid for by the members.

You will let us sweat. Well it is PHX and almost 100 now. That probably has more to do with it then some perceived golden nugget of information. Legal snag. Right! Did he hit that on the golf course during his vacation? But I suppose that you think the summary judgment just filed has a chance also.