US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 5/19-5/26 READ THE FIRST POST

[traderjake]

Now that truly is a shockingly good idea! Older pilots who have been here longer get their time as capt and then they retire and their junior counterparts move up, and the cycle continues.

Here's a shockingly good idea. Everyone keeps the job they brought to the merger.

East F/O don't jump ahead of West Captains because they worked for a stagnant company.

That's exactly what happened.

 

[luvn737s]

What do you get for your $240 besides a distraction for how poorly USAPA is handling what they have in front of them RIGHT NOW? I would think investigations into possible criminal activity is something USAPA would want to stay far away from given their track record with election activity, DFR, etc.

Here's a novel idea, why not look forward to a stronger union that can gradually build back some of what was lost, rather than constantly looking back at what WE (meaning the ruling class of USAPA) had in the good old days.

I'd like a union that served it's members, not constantly went looking for villains to wage pointless destructive wars against.

 

[nostradamus]

Here's a shockingly good idea. Everyone keeps the job they brought to the merger.

This is exactly what the transition agreement provides for. Separate operations until a CBA (collective bargaining agreement) The West job stock you owned has lost significant value vs the East Stock value of a job.

Now how about we negotiate before your stock has no value.

Welcome to the jungle.

 

[hp_fa]

I have absolutely no dog in this hunt but I despise criminal activity, especially if the alleged criminal is one who owes a fiduciary responsibility.

The part of the quoted remarks that says the PBGC would have claim for any recovered monies rings true. The question becomes, in part, is it worth the outlay of funds? Only East folks can answer that. However I don't understand why you need to actually do the investigation yourself rather than either turn the matter over to either the PBGC or the FBI. Let them do the investigation since they have subpoena power and federal jurisdiction. If a crime is alleged to have happened then, if feasible, file a lawsuit if a proper defendant with assets that will not be subject to PBGC claim can realistically be brought. If ALPA National is in anyway involved it would likely destroy ALPA and prosecutors and investigators might find that to be a tempting target.

However, reading between the lines, I am wondering if the target of the speculation might instead be one or more pilots who are or were East members and what may possibly be inferred in someone embezzled or otherwise unjustly enriched themselves. If that is the case then again I suggest the FBI. If you believe the target is the former US Airways then that would likely be a futile gesture because of the bankruptcy and that the new US Airways would not be a party to any bad acts committed by the old US Airways.

I'd say turn whatever you have over to the Feds and then see if they can put a case together because I don't see where doing any such investigation can realistically benefit the East pilots. While revenge may be a dish best served cold, is it worth that much money under the circumstances?

 

[Metroyet]

I don't see where doing any such investigation can realistically benefit the East pilots. While revenge may be a dish best served cold, is it worth that much money under the circumstances?

C'mon. USAPA has no shortages of "boogey" men and paranoid delusions of victimization. Surely somebody ELSE is at fault for EVERYTHING.

The list of culpable enemies that USAPA perceives to be under attack from is going larger by the day. What's the definition of crazy again? Something about expecting different results from repetitive behaviour?

HOW MUCH LONGER WILL THE EAST ALLOW THE INMATES TO RUN THE ASYLUM???

If I were a usapa member, I'd be contacting my reps insisting on a membership vote regarding the appeals decision. Blind rage should not be the guiding principle...getting a livable contract should be.

 

[nycbusdriver]

If I were a usapa member, I'd be contacting my reps insisting on a membership vote regarding the appeals decision. Blind rage should not be the guiding principle...getting a livable contract should be.

And I suppose the vast legions of west USAPA members will vote (as a BLOCK!) against the proposal.

What? About 160 pilots?

Boo hoo. :-(

 

[nycbusdriver]

Here's a shockingly good idea. Everyone keeps the job they brought to the merger.

East F/O don't jump ahead of West Captains because they worked for a stagnant company.

That's exactly what happened.

That's exactly what happened on May 5, 2007. But time has a tendency to march on, and that May 5th snapshot would not have persisted for very long.

 

[boeingplt]

Here's a shockingly good idea. Everyone keeps the job they brought to the merger.

East F/O don't jump ahead of West Captains because they worked for a stagnant company.

That's exactly what happened.

Here's the problem. You don't want to keep the job you brought, you want to keep the job you had at the snap shot and use that as a perpetual slingshot to maintain the advantage over your east counterparts.

Every airline has its ebb and flow and east was beginning to see a long awaited upsurge in attrition, albeit delayed a bit by the age 65 change. So you want to not only keep the job you brought but also take the future jobs that the east brought as well - jobs that you would have had anyway as the older, more tenured, pilots retire.

This is just BS venting anyway. See you in SFO.

BP

 

[exB717Flyer]

Here's the problem. You don't want to keep the job you brought, you want to keep the job you had at the snap shot and use that as a perpetual slingshot to maintain the advantage over your east counterparts.

There's a reason a snapshot date is used. If it wasn't, you might as well readjust the seniority list after every monthly bid and aircraft order. There would be no end it. What has happened to both sides since Nicolau ruled is simply irrelevent. I guarantee you had the West grown and Eash shrunk you'd be venting about something there too.

 

[EastUS]

What do you get for your $240 besides a distraction for how poorly USAPA is handling what they have in front of them RIGHT NOW?

So, in your estimation, those interested parties that suffered the essential theft of nearly or well over a million dollars each should just forget about it entirely, rather than even take ANY investigative action at all? The west ox was not gored by mighty Alpa in this case, so, I suppose you feel it more reasonable to obsess on unknowable future court processes per the appeals/etc than try to do anything at all about the east pensions, even by way of inquiry.

As for "besides a distraction"? = Again; you/the west didn't suffer this loss, and your overall agenda's quite clear here, and anything else is just "a distraction" by your reckoning. To those who DID have their pensions obliterated without so much as a vote...well..some of us would like some answers. Additionally; if you've any honest hopes that any/all of the currently spewed west propaganda will serve to diminish east interest in persuing whatever actions against the nic that are possible..well...you're dreaming, so no need to fret over any being "distracted" from your attempts at reducing that resolve.

What's the down side to making investigative inquiry into the pension give away?...Any?

To Hp-Fa: I agree that this should and hopefully may one day be persued through the appropriate agencies for criminal investigation. The thing is; The more facts and information that can be handed to any such agencies; the higher the likelihood they'll actually try to do something about it at any level, as you know.

 

[nic4us]

Snoop,

Actually I am almost on your side of the age 58 arguement but not quite. Changing the age to 63 conforms to the new age 65 law and upholds the intent of the contract ( rather than pay for training the company will put it into your check if you have less than 2 years to go). Where I lose you is that it should have been voted on by West members, not membership at large, because it only effects West members. We have a better understanding of the ramifications of the contract and other provisions it also effects. USAPA's constitution says something to the effect of " a vote by the effected pilots".


Other east posters,

If you want an assesment to do an investigation into pension loss, go for it. Perhaps you will find a culprit, but more likely you will find some kind of closure to an obviously frustrating circumstance.

 

[EastUS]

Where I lose you is that it should have been voted on by West members, not membership at large, because it only effects West members. We have a better understanding of the ramifications of the contract and other provisions it also effects. USAPA's constitution says something to the effect of " a vote by the effected pilots".

I'm honestly curious on this. Just how many "West members" did you even have enrolled as such at that time?
Should those very, very few have had the mandate for all of your people out there? No matter really. As for:
"We have a better understanding of the ramifications of the contract and other provisions it also effects."...I'm sure you do. It's a true pity the entire west focus has been nothing more than to attack the union at every level, and complain loudly afterward, whenever things didn't/don't go as you would wish. Perhaps some larger degree of actually rational involvement would/could benefit west interests. I realize that's just a ridiculously radical notion on my part...

 

[nic4us]

That's exactly what happened on May 5, 2007. But time has a tendency to march on, and that May 5th snapshot would not have persisted for very long.

the May 5 snapshot lasted until May 6, and there in lies the problem. Everyone talks about keeping what they brought but that all changed the day of the merger.

During negotiations-arbitration everything is on the table because it is all going to change and we all know it. The question is how do you divide everything up in an equitable manner so we all share what both side brought. The answere in this case was you build a seniority list based on relative status and everyone stays where they were, and we move forward together.

For the east to claim, after the fact, that their attrition should be off the table and protected is laughable. Equally unreasonable is the east claim that widebody is the sole possesion of the east is ridiculous, perhaps a minimum reserved for the east is reasonable, as they brought existing widebody, but the merger opened the door for an expanded widebody fleet, as evidenced by the A350 launch customer status, and the West deserves a portion if growth opens that opportunity.

 

[nycbusdriver]

the May 5 snapshot lasted until May 6, and there in lies the problem. Everyone talks about keeping what they brought but that all changed the day of the merger.

During negotiations-arbitration everything is on the table because it is all going to change and we all know it. The question is how do you divide everything up in an equitable manner so we all share what both side brought. The answere in this case was you build a seniority list based on relative status and everyone stays where they were, and we move forward together.

For the east to claim, after the fact, that their attrition should be off the table and protected is laughable. Equally unreasonable is the east claim that widebody is the sole possesion of the east is ridiculous, perhaps a minimum reserved for the east is reasonable, as they brought existing widebody, but the merger opened the door for an expanded widebody fleet, as evidenced by the A350 launch customer status, and the West deserves a portion if growth opens that opportunity.

I agree with about 60% of what you are saying here.

Of course, it's the other 40% that neither side will yield, and that's why we're in court in PHX, soon to be SFO.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Snoop,


If you want an assesment to do an investigation into pension loss, go for it. Perhaps you will find a culprit, but more likely you will find some kind of closure to an obviously frustrating circumstance.

Closure. Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that really exists back east. They just keep whipping themselves up into a self affirming tizzy and appealing. I'm sure usapa will disagree with the smackdown they are likely to get chasing the pension bogeyman as well. If they do find a bogeyman though, I'll be happy for them. All these pensions just taken from people is really a sad story.

After Judge Reidinger smacked them down in their own backyard, "usapa believes the judge ruled in error." After the jury in AZ smacked them down, "we're appealing to the supreme court, our hands were tied, they were biased and hostile, the judge didn't allow our best material..." blah blah blah.