US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 5/19-5/26 READ THE FIRST POST

[prechilill]

That's a joke. Right???

Yep! There is no way these guys out east have the fortitude or character to do the right thing. We are married to the mob and will have to nail their coffin shut to get anything done. The judge knows who we are dealing with.

 

[prechilill]

It's a simple question....but one that you obviously can't answer: How did USAPA "modify" the existing and BINDING (WEST ALPA and COMPANY) contract to address the age 65 rule?
You have typed and typed...with no answer in sight.

I'll type a few words to get you started;

Any new union is entitled and empowered to negotiate on any existing or future agreements or contracts covering the employees said union is elected to represent...

(you can take it from there...the 9th surely will)

Dude, you can't redo the arbitration. As much as you hate the right seat and commuting from Phoenix, you won't change the Nic. So long as you are at USAirways you will be near the bottom of the seniority list, and if you do not like that you need to find another job. It's that simple. Asking one of us repeatedly a nebulous question about union powers you dreamed up is irrelevant because: 1. this case has already been decided in a federal court by nine of your peers (GUILTY) 2. you are so consumed with frustration you cannot think straight, as evidenced by your recent resurgence in postings, so what is the point of even discussing any facts with you?

 

[A320 Driver]

Yep! There is no way these guys out east have the fortitude or character to do the right thing. We are married to the mob and will have to nail their coffin shut to get anything done. The judge knows who we are dealing with.

Oh, you're going to be a joy to share a cockpit with...

Gear up Dude.

A320 Driver B)

 

[Tiger 1050]

I'll type a few words to get you started;

Any new union is entitled and empowered to negotiate on any existing or future agreements or contracts covering the employees said union is elected to represent...

(you can take it from there...the 9th surely will)

Okay. I needed you to provide a little more context for yourself. Which you did nicely here...

You said:

"Any new union is entitled and empowered to negotiate on any existing or future agreements or contracts covering the employees said union is elected to represent..."

That's right NSMJ! However you are conveniently forgetting that you may do so only if it does not become and arbitrary act towards a minority element! That IS RLA law. So now that we have that little piece of the puzzle we can now see the bigger picture at work here. Yes USAPA is the legal bargaining agent. Yes they can bargain on our behalf. Yes they can modify existing agreements. BUT THEY CANNOT ACT IN AN ARBITRARY MANNER TO BENEFIT THE MAJORITY! When you agreed (and don't give me this petty little "I didn't have any say!") to arbitration, that both sides knew would be binding, and then form a new union with the express intent of abrogating this binding award YOU ARE ACTING IN AN ARBITRARY MANNER TOWARDS A MINORITY element in this particular case. The Judge saw it. The Jury saw it. And! The 9th Circuit will see it.

 

[LegacyPilot]

Funny none of the AA or SWA pilots I've talked to seem to think US Airways pilots are the laughing stock of the industry. Do yoy have any actual facts, qoutes, or personal information to substantiate your claims.


I would not say laughing stock. I would say the east pilots are viewed as certainly acting less than honerable. While many pilots think the Nic list was not fair to the East pilots, I don't think you will find many pilots who will defend their subsequent actions. A deal is a deal, binding is binding, and deep down the East pilots know they are not acting with honor.

JMHO,
Back to lurk mode as this slow motion train wreck continues.

 

[oscarjazz]

It's a simple question....but one that you obviously can't answer: How did USAPA "modify" the existing and BINDING (WEST ALPA and COMPANY) contract to address the age 65 rule?
You have typed and typed...with no answer in sight.

I'll type a few words to get you started;

Any new union is entitled and empowered to negotiate on any existing or future agreements or contracts covering the employees said union is elected to represent...

(you can take it from there...the 9th surely will)

... and they have an affirmative duty to represent all members fairly. Negotiating a change to the contract to accommodate a change to national law obviously is necessary and I am sure the provisions were similar to the what is in the East contract. This is the wide latitude given to unions to represent the interest of their members.

The question of this trial is whether your proposal to LCC management on seniority fairly represents all employees. The case is well delineated in that there was an agreed upon process to integrate the seniority list. That process was run to completion and the seniority list was accepted by management. That was the last step of the process.

USAPA formed a new union expressly to try to trample upon the seniority rights of the minority group of their members. Despite their manufactured complaints against ALPA, it is clear that these complaints were merely a pretext for their seniority ambitions.

The list proposed by USAPA moves every West pilot to a lower seniority number and every East pilot to a higher seniority number. The pretext for this is that this is the only way to pass a new contract.

These transparent pretexts are obvious to everyone, except to Seham and the USAPA BPR. Despite the efforts to hide behind these pretexts, it is clear that the East pilots formed USAPA to trample over the rights of the West. THAT IS A VIOLATION OF THE DUTY OF FAIR REPRESENTATION.

So, USAPA has the right to negotiate changes to both East and West contracts. They have the right to negotiate the new contract. They have a DUTY to represent all members of the class fairly. Does that answer your question?

p.s. I do not work for LCC in any capacity, I work for another airline.

 

[nic4us]

... and they have an affirmative duty to represent all members fairly. Negotiating a change to the contract to accommodate a change to national law obviously is necessary and I am sure the provisions were similar to the what is in the East contract. This is the wide latitude given to unions to represent the interest of their members.

These transparent pretexts are obvious to everyone, except to Seham and the USAPA BPR. Despite the efforts to hide behind these pretexts, it is clear that the East pilots formed USAPA to trample over the rights of the West. THAT IS A VIOLATION OF THE DUTY OF FAIR REPRESENTATION.

So, USAPA has the right to negotiate changes to both East and West contracts. They have the right to negotiate the new contract. They have a DUTY to represent all members of the class fairly. Does that answer your question?

p.s. I do not work for LCC in any capacity, I work for another airline.

There is your answere.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Hey guys,

After you get done bankrupting US Airways maybe you can get a job with Eastern Airlines.

No doubt Eastern had a group of great employees. How many of them still have the wherewithal and lack of common sense to join this guy in his "quest."

I nominate the new Eastern Airlines idea as the Dumbest Idea of the Third Millenium. Luckily, there's still another 991 years to top it, but I'm skeptical.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Hey guys,
After you get done bankrupting US Airways maybe you can get a job with Eastern Airlines.

Eastern is out of business, so I doubt they're hiring.

This new fling is just that...a fling for someone with an idea and no financing. Plus, I bet his pilot wages will offer no competitive advantage to what LCC pays its pilots east of the Mississippi. The East is quite a help to Doug et. al. with their C scale wages. They represent a $50 an hour cost advantage to a comparable ALK captain. $40 for F/Os. And we haven't even mentioned all the savings for the company in the LOA 93 work rules. How about the 401K as compared to ALK? The best part for Doug is that these cost advantages will continue for another two or three years and given these advantages, LCC has all the help it needs to get through the current economic malaise. We'll be fine.

 

[Tiger 1050]

It is a tragic truth that many people are born carrying diseases from their forebears. Do you suggest that said diseases should be left untreated?

In this case I say put the animal (USAPA) down and start over. :unsure:

 

[nycbusdriver]

The East is quite a help to Doug et. al. with their C scale wages. They represent a $50 an hour cost advantage to a comparable ALK captain. $40 for F/Os. And we haven't even mentioned all the savings for the company in the LOA 93 work rules. How about the 401K as compared to ALK? The best part for Doug is that these cost advantages will continue for another two or three years and given these advantages, LCC has all the help it needs to get through the current economic malaise. We'll be fine.

Hahahaha! The AWA pilots had wages in the bloody gutter since the day they started, and for two decades maintained that "cost advantage" for their dubious management (while USAirways pilots enjoyed top dollar.) Now, with the LOA 93 wages of only the past 4 1/2 years, all of the sudden the east pilots are the bad guys with low wages.

And why the comparison to ALK? How's the west retirement plan coming along? We on the east don't have much left on that count, but at least we have something. And the west retirement funding took a leap forward ONLY because of the merger with the east.

What a hoot! Is it selective memory on the west, or group-Alzheimer's setting in?

 

[Tiger 1050]

What a hoot! Is it selective memory on the west, or group-Alzheimer's setting in?

No. We just play mean! ...Like you!

 

[EastUS]

In this case I say put the animal (USAPA) down and start over. :unsure:

I see...so...what if we substitute (ALPA) in there instead, as the diseased animal needing to be put down..and then start over?... (Which we did, btw) Hmmm..and all this time all I've ever been hearing from the west is that all of the east notions were "crazy".....Well....Welcome aboard.

 

[nycbusdriver]

No. We just play mean! ...Like you!

See. There is some common ground after all!

 

[aquagreen73s]

Hahahaha! The AWA pilots had wages in the bloody gutter since the day they started, and for two decades maintained that "cost advantage" for their dubious management (while USAirways pilots enjoyed top dollar.)

The AWA guys were all captains and from seeing how seniority lists are merged these days (relative), it was a lot better to work for less but enjoy the position. We could have been much better off a few years ago with 158 an hour, but we got USAPA instead. Wonderful.

If you dollar cost average the time the 88 and 89 pilots spent on the street after 9/11, the top pay isn't so top anymore.