US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 2/24-3/3

[nic4us]

Your confusion is, well, confusing. and then you follow it up with, more confusion?

Well, hopefully..eventually..I will author a post that you can understand.

 

[traderjake]

The west pilots, in their collective ignorance, seem to view USAPA as their enemy

When someone tries to steal your job they are your enemy.

Not to know that is ignorant.

 

[sharktooth]

When someone tries to steal your job they are your enemy.

Not to know that is ignorant.

The "nic" can never be erased. It will be like that permanent boil on your tutu, a historical blot on professional pilots everywhere.

That said, the "nic" only gains any credence, whatsoever, only if two, individually ratified merger agreements were signed between the east and the company and the west and the company. Otherwise, it has no power whatsoever. Even if the east pilots ratified an agreement, yet the west pilots could not get their act together (like now) and ratify an agreement, then, the "nic" is dead.

The policy was set up that way, that one group could, in a sense, opt out of the process.

I think you know better than me that there is no way the east group will ratify anything with just the "nic". The whole thing is like a lottery winner who could not make it to redeem their ticket for some reason and whining how he was robbed. It would be like a union member making future plans based on hearing what an "opener" is, pure immaturity. The vocal westies simply want to make the "nic" portable and apply to a different process, I believe that is the basis for their whining.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Perhaps you are the naive one. You also have never taken the company to the brink.

I participated in the PSA pilot strike in 1980, for an industry standard contract when the pilots were represented by an independent union, the SFCA (Southwest Flight Crew Asociation). We went on strike for 55 days.

During that time furloughed pilots from Braniff and others were interviewing for our jobs, even as we walked the picket lines. The company was recruiting replacement pilots and was quite successful in obtaining the requesite number of pilots to do so. However, the SFCA members capitulated and the replacements were never hired.

I not only believe many West pilots will do as you describe, but the company will pick up their tab.

In case you haven't been keeping up on current events, or your 401K balance, these are perilous times and many will walk right over your back to get your job. As usual, right battle, wrong timing.

What a trooper. Good on you for walking that picket line for 55 days.

But your story is ancient history, and the paragdigms have changed forever.

There will be no picket lines. And there aren't enough west pilots to sit in hotels (and are qualified on all our types) to prevent chaos. If there were, then who would fly the west airplanes? Who is going to sit in Rome and fly the A330 back? Who is going to sit in DFW and fly the E190 back?

Actually, that scenarios is a wonderful thought. I wish it could happen, because not only would the airplanes start to empty out with chaos, but the hotel bills would skyrocket.

 

[luvthe9]

When someone tries to steal your job they are your enemy.

No one on the East wants your jobs. Period!!!

 

[banshee74]

That's cool, banshee. And I, for one respect that attitude even though ALPA's shortcomings were pretty much a reflection of the US pilots that were in power at the union during those miserable years.

So, I take it then, that you wouldn't be heartbroken should the Nic seniority method prevail. And, based upon your previous experience, do you feel it is proper for one group to use it's superior power of numbers and ignore it's commitment in order to walk all over another?

I personally have only a few bones about usapa. The DOH entitlement just happens to sit atop the list.

NLC....it wasn't just the US portion of ALPA that I had some problems with. I was in MHT very early one morning. There was a CRJ next to us. All dark. Then faces started appearing in the cockpit, lights came on, all without anybody coming up to the A/C. I said to my F/O that it looked like those guys spent the night on the A/C...his reply was that their contract stated that with less than "X" hours of overnight, they were not entitled to a room!!! And this was an ALPA contract? My thought was how does ALPA represent our pilot groups interests and sign a contract like this??? Don't get me wrong...ALPA had a lot of good stuff too....legal, safety, accident investigation, etc.

Whether NIC is implemented or not does not depend on anything said in any forum. Do I personally have some problems with the seniority as cited by NIC? Yes. Would I have problems with a straight DOH list? Yes.

"superior power"....I'd rather call it a sustainment of proper majority rule in a legal process...ie..a legal election. As is the proper right of others to file a lawsuit in response to perceived injustices as a result of that election. A court will decide the outcome.

Few aspects of a pilots life here at U has more impact than that of seniority. Somehow, as our careers go forward, we all have to find a way to live with that outcome.

 

[EastUS]

No joke and it has been brought up before, say the idea of 20+ year f/o payscale hitting what is essentially captain pay at 20 years etc...

what is wrong with the existing union is it is designed by its C&BLs to mitigate any influence from the largest crew base in the system i.e. PHX so that the pesky West could never intefer with the stated purpose of trash canning the NIC. USAPA is designed so that a group could break their obligations to others, frankly their word is no good, and I do not believe that is a starting point to form a union. USAPA has to go.

Ah!..I see what you meant now. Thanks for expanding on it a bit. Get any two people together and there'll be two differing opinions, at least to some level.
I can't see massaging primary seniority issues by contract to be a workable idea for several reasons. Firstly; I'm of the earnest opinion that any trade union can only be effective when there's no room for individual opportunism via ANY "relative" parameters, and that DOH or at least LOS must be core/ironclad bedrock principles. Without affording full worth to the length of any person's work service within any class/craft....well...imo..there's ZERO basis to build any semblance of unity. What results instead is the "every person for themselves" mentality, as opposed to "we're all in this together" as a class and craft. To say that whimsical approaches towards seniority establishment manufacture nothing but strife's an extreme understatement, and no more perfect and pathetic example should be needed to confirm that than is present in the west vs east pilot distress on the US property. It's not arguable that the west established DOH as the rational basis for your seniority, and quite properly; none out west found that to be unprincipled or troublesome. That Alpa was/is a pathetic "joke" of a union, that constantly proved itself to be anything but an actual union's not a point of concern to me anymore, other than it's use as a fine model for how NOT to do things. I don't believe that anyone can rationally even attempt to argue that the "processes" and preposterous and ambiguous "guidelines" Alpa employed produced anything but strife on the US property. The results of attempting any nebulous notions of "relative" seniority speak for themselves. Wherever they're tried; they result in ill will between groups that's antithetical to actual unionism.

As for establishing any contract that could somehow make the nic nonsense "acceptable" by way of economic enhancements?...I don't feel that's any viable option that'd be embraced. The east group's previously seen contracts dismembered or completely eliminated at a moment's whim.

As for "their word is no good,"..."INTEGRITY MATTERS"..."we'll cross picket lines in a heartbeat"...but, the west's the self-declared, supposed fountain from which all "Righteousness" flows/etc... I'd ask you all kindly: Just spare me

 

[cleardirect]

Ah!..I see what you meant now. Thanks for expanding on it a bit. Get any two people together and there'll be two differing opinions, at least to some level.
I can't see massaging primary seniority issues by contract to be a workable idea for several reasons. Firstly; I'm of the earnest opinion that any trade union can only be effective when there's no room for individual opportunism via ANY "relative" parameters, and that DOH or at least LOS must be core/ironclad bedrock principles. Without affording full worth to the length of any person's work service within any class/craft....well...imo..there's ZERO basis to build any semblance of unity. What results instead is the "every person for themselves" mentality, as opposed to "we're all in this together" as a class and craft. To say that whimsical approaches towards seniority establishment manufacture nothing but strife's an extreme understatement, and no more perfect and pathetic example should be needed to confirm that than is present in the west vs east pilot distress on the US property. It's not arguable that the west established DOH as the rational basis for your seniority, and quite properly; none out west found that to be unprincipled or troublesome. That Alpa was/is a pathetic "joke" of a union, that constantly proved itself to be anything but an actual union's not a point of concern to me anymore, other than it's use as a fine model for how NOT to do things. I don't believe that anyone can rationally even attempt to argue that the "processes" and preposterous and ambiguous "guidelines" Alpa employed produced anything but strife on the US property. The results of attempting any nebulous notions of "relative" seniority speak for themselves. Wherever they're tried; they result in ill will between groups that's antithetical to actual unionism.

As for establishing any contract that could somehow make the nic nonsense "acceptable" by way of economic ehnancements?...I don't feel that's any viable option that'd be embraced. The east group's previously seen contracts dismembered or completely eliminated at a moment's whim.

As for "their word is no good,"..."INTEGRITY MATTERS"..."we'll cross picket lines in a heartbeat"...but, the west's the self-declared, supposed fountain from which all "Righteousness" flows/etc... I'd ask you kindly good sir: Just spare me

East,

Those are all very nice sentiments. But let’s look at your words from the west point of view.
It has all ready been established that straight DOH/LOS for the west is devastating and unfair in the extreme. Even the USAPA C&BL has a provision for C&R. The merger chair testifies in court under oath that C&R were needed to protect the west pre-merger career expectations using DOH.

I can't see massaging primary seniority issues by contract to be a workable idea for several reasons.

What do you think C&R do? They massage the results.

well...imo..there's ZERO basis to build any semblance of unity.

What unity has USAPA built? About half of the total pilots have joined voluntarily, less then half have voted in the first election.

To say that whimsical approaches towards seniority establishment manufacture nothing but strife's an extreme understatement

Refer to my C&R statement.

I don't believe that anyone can rationally even attempt to argue that the "processes" and preposterous and ambiguous "guidelines" Alpa employed produced anything but strife on the US property.

Replace ALPA with USAPA and you get the same results. USAPA’s ambiguous C&R in addition to demand of DOH and caused tremendous strife.

Wherever they're tried; they result in ill will between groups that's antithetical to actual unionism.

Are you talking about ALPA or USAPA?

The east group's previously seen contracts dismembered or completely eliminated at a moment's whim.

Exactly how USAPA so called protective C&R would be dismembered at the whim of the majority.

 

[EastUS]

East,

Those are all very nice sentiments. But let’s look at your words from the west point of view.

That you find such apparent difficulty differentiating between earnest, core beliefs and "sentiments" speaks volumes. My beliefs on what's proper for the situation aren't flexible, even so as to better suit any selfishness on my part. From any purely selfish/ personal gain perspective?..I'd be fine with Nic and as expeditous a contract enhancement as is possible. From any perspective on doing what's right and rational? Nic? = NO WAY!!

"But let's look at your words from the west point of view." I already have looked at "the west point of view"..many times, ...and it utterly disgusts me. You personally believe yourself worthy of usurping over a decade more of another's working life for your own selfish gain. Is there ANY level on which you can deny that? How anyone can wrap themselves around such wholesale, utterly selfish BS's not my personal problem. Here's a quote from your very own "Leonidas" that, to me, best summarizes "the west point of view" in an instant = Leonidas: "I want the captain seat, ..and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it"

Continue tap dancing at your pleasure.....

 

[nycbusdriver]

As for establishing any contract that could somehow make the nic nonsense "acceptable" by way of economic ehnancements?...I don't feel that's any viable option that'd be embraced. The east group's previously seen contracts dismembered or completely eliminated at a moment's whim.

You hit on the crux of the problem of financial enhancements. The east has learned the hard way that those can be gone in a heartbeat, and nothing of a financial incentive, short of a $1 million deposit into each individually pilot-controlled pension plan, would even be considered.

I always thought that rearranging the way we are paid might work. Make the bulk of our hourly pay tied to DOH, with much smaller overrides for captain-seat, wide-body flying and international flying, and the "nic nonsense" might be acceptable to a lot more easties. The problem with this is the possibility (probability?) of yet another merger with a larger carrier where this new pay scheme will be tossed out the window, yet the "nic nonsense" will survive. And then we are back where we are right now, or worse.

I don't see any way to make the "nic nonsense" palatable. We may have to endure it by court order, or we may not. Either way, I never see any way for a peaceful solution to the disconnect between the east and west pilots groups. One or the other side will be fighting mad until all of us here now are retired or dead. I shudder to think what combined cockpit crews will be like in the aftermath of this mess.

 

[Metroyet]

No one on the East wants your jobs. Period!!!

The 700 East that brought nothing but a 5 year old pink slip to the merger certainly do.

 

[cleardirect]

The problem with this is the possibility (probability?) of yet another merger with a larger carrier where this new pay scheme will be tossed out the window, yet the "nic nonsense" will survive. And then we are back where we are right now, or worse.

Now exchange "pay scheme" with usapa conditions and restriction to protect the west. You have got the problem. You get DOH and C&R go away in the next merger. Where then is the "protection" for the west?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Now exchange "pay scheme" with usapa conditions and restriction to protect the west. You have got the problem. You get DOH and C&R go away in the next merger. Where then is the "protection" for the west?

You're right.

There is no solution that I can see that will possibly unite this pilot group. I don't think that fact bodes well for the future of this airline. It is already unmanaged/mismanaged. The disconnect in the pilot group makes it virtually unsaleable, and that will never go away.

 

[cleardirect]

You're right.

There is no solution that I can see that will possibly unite this pilot group. I don't think that fact bodes well for the future of this airline. It is already unmanaged/mismanaged. The disconnect in the pilot group makes it virtually unsaleable, and that will never go away.

We have agreement.

We had better be careful. We might find something else that we both agree with. It could lead to a pattern or a trend.

 

[Phoenix]

The "nic" can never be erased. It will be like that permanent boil on your tutu, a historical blot on professional pilots everywhere...

Au contraire...

It is ALPA's. It stands as a testament to the effect of "dues at all cost".

ALPA outsourced the responsibility to define seniority and proved they don't even have the intent to be what they claim to be.