US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 2/24-3/3

[Metroyet]

Whew!..You folks out there truly are an "abused" and "oppressed minority"...and to think that all you're loudly demanding is merely to have your newest hires valued at over 17 years worth of other people's work lives..and have, as some of your most strident advocates, individuals that "only" seek to have their 11 years valued far in excess of another's 21 plus years. It's truly tragic, and you have my deepest symapthy.......

Do you guys ever have an argument that is actually relevant to anything? All the West demands is it's legal rights...as distasteful as that is for you. Your MEC agreed to binding arbitration with your pilots full support and you cry all day on the Web that somehow the WEST screwed you over? You guys chose Nicalau, he had two neutrals, and he issued a lengthy reasoned award. Read it sometime.

Cry all you want. I would ask however that for once, you place the blame exactly where it belongs. The East never let go of DOH through out this entire process. Fine. However that also means that the West owes you nothing...not even an explanation. You all should have been big enough boys to understand the risks of B.A. and your collective failure to understand the process or take any responsibility for it's outcome makes me sick.

 

[EastUS]

All the West demands is it's legal rights...as distasteful as that is for you.
Cry all you want.
........makes me sick.

1) No one's denying you any such rights. It's yet to be determined just what those are/will prove to be.
2) I'll leave that to any/all individuals clearly more adept at expert whining.
3) Sounds like a bit of a personal issue. I hope it passes.

Have a good day!

 

[sharktooth]

That's what Dual Ratification was all about...before you guys attempted to steal it...like dictators.

What is "Dual Ratification" all about? Democracy? Can you cite a historical instance where "Dual Ratification" was "stolen" by dictator(s)? I don't get the analogy, sorry. It seems your confusion continues.

I guess I always understood the TA to outline a plan that required three legs,

1. an arbitrated list,
2. an east ratified merged contract, and
3. a west ratified merged contract.

The lack of any one item fails the transition agreement.

For at least ten to fifteen years, you will likely never get an east ratified merged contract that includes the "nic" and, it seems, US pilots will "never" see a west ratified contract that does not include the "nic".

USAPA, for the betterment of all the US pilots, is trying to break that deadlock. The west pilots, in their collective ignorance, seem to view USAPA as their enemy, when, in fact, it is ALPA (along with management) that is the enemy, IMO. ALPA promised the west pilots something ALPA could never deliver. ALPA thought they had "wiggle room" and when the guns came out ALPA had to back off, realizing they had only brought knives.

It was not the "nic", per se, that resulted in USAPA. It was the political maneuvering and manipulations that the east pilots were seeing, yet again, tossing members under the bus, that resulted in the vote for USAPA.

 

[banshee74]

Perhaps we could win your vote and support if another alternative was put forth. Perhaps an in house union that takes the best USAPA has to offer, but has a different C&BLs that follow a more democratic process, and allows for implementation of the NIC, while contractual incentives meter what the east percieves as shortcomings of the NIC.

Nic4us......Yes, I would certainly consider it!! But the choice last April was a continuation of ALPA or an in house union. I decided to choose the latter. I'm not saying I have agreed with everything USAPA has done so far....and my reps were advised accordingly every time. With USAPA elections in play we all have an opportunity to determine future direction.

There is a bigger gorilla in the room.

Thanks for a professional exchange........

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

To my fellow pilots out west....the assumption that USAPA was voted in on only the aspect of seniority is entirely INCORRECT. I'm senior enough that the NIC does not touch me at all...I voted for USAPA because I was tired of ALPA's shortcomings in relation to this company's pilot group, and I felt an in house union would serve this pilot groups interests better. American and Southwest seem satisfied with their own union.

Before you start banging away at your keyboard to tell me how and what I really thought, don't bother, you won't change my vote...now or in the future.

That's cool, banshee. And I, for one respect that attitude even though ALPA's shortcomings were pretty much a reflection of the US pilots that were in power at the union during those miserable years.

So, I take it then, that you wouldn't be heartbroken should the Nic seniority method prevail. And, based upon your previous experience, do you feel it is proper for one group to use it's superior power of numbers and ignore it's commitment in order to walk all over another?

I personally have only a few bones about usapa. The DOH entitlement just happens to sit atop the list.

 

[N924PS]

Yes, indeed...you are far better than Metroyet. What you fail to recognize is that the DOH mandate has legs in history...over many unions in many mergers. That the west perceives inequality in this case is notable, but not history-making. That the west will argue that USAPA must uphold previously held ALPA positions will fall on its face. The change of venue empowers USAPA...ALL previous agreements are up for grabs.

I give you a 7 of 10.

next?

How about the recent history of the DL/NW seniority list arbitration. Was that a DOH mandate?

 

[luvthe9]

LETTER FROM A FUTURE AMERICA WEST (Edited by Moderator)

In the names above, I do not recognize one West pilot who had "lively debates" with you about what the final seniority list should look like. With incredible hubris and sense of entitlement, you of the East decided a "fair and equitable" way to integrate the two pre merger airlines in the list passed to the company last year. No neutral third party, no input from those you claim to protect with "conditions and restrictions." Even more laughable, you tout the disenfranchising of the America West Pilots as something you are proud of.



I hope you will be proud of the circumstances, B-scale and slave labor work rules, that many of your East brethren will be retiring on (maybe even you after being there 28 years). Mr. Glass is giving legal "lip service" to negotiating in good faith, but a contract will not be forth coming. The synergies being reaped by management over the devision between East and West is unprecedented. The entire East is working on B-scale with slave labor work rules, while the West is operating as if they have no legal representation which translates into a very fuel efficient, reliable, and on time West operation. He is aware that many, if not most, on the West would happily cross any USAPA picket line on all their days off, to fly to FAR mins, for free, in the highly unlikely event of the NMB releasing USAPA to strike. The East's attempt to negotiate a contract without unity with the West is a sad joke on us all.



We will continue to enjoy the fence we are not getting paid for, while you continue to enjoy your B-scale and slave labor work rules. I think our lot is better than yours. In the current economic climate, after the pot is tapped to get the East parity with the West, we on the West probably wouldn't be getting much of a pay raise, increase in benefits, or better scheduling. Even as he threw our top 400 guys under the bus, Nicolau recognized what parity would cost the West in the next contract. Was that reality part of your "lively debate" when coming up with YOUR "conditions and restrictions?"



Personally, I wouldn't mind a return to the days when management was pilot enemy #1, instead of my fellow union brethren. Should I not be fired by an arbitrator on April 1st, at the request of my union, then maybe I will be one step closer to change from within. In the meantime, should those you have endorsed get elected, then change from within will be a joke and negotiations will continue to be "lip-service" only. Enjoy your B-scale and slave labor work rules.



Have a nice day,

 

[nycbusdriver]

LETTER FROM A FUTURE AMERICA WEST (Edited by moderator)

In the names above, I do not recognize one West pilot who had "lively debates" with you about what the final seniority list should look like. With incredible hubris and sense of entitlement, you of the East decided a "fair and equitable" way to integrate the two pre merger airlines in the list passed to the company last year. No neutral third party, no input from those you claim to protect with "conditions and restrictions." Even more laughable, you tout the disenfranchising of the America West Pilots as something you are proud of.



I hope you will be proud of the circumstances, B-scale and slave labor work rules, that many of your East brethren will be retiring on (maybe even you after being there 28 years). Mr. Glass is giving legal "lip service" to negotiating in good faith, but a contract will not be forth coming. The synergies being reaped by management over the devision between East and West is unprecedented. The entire East is working on B-scale with slave labor work rules, while the West is operating as if they have no legal representation which translates into a very fuel efficient, reliable, and on time West operation. Mr. Glass knows USAPA has no leverage at the bargaining table. He is aware that many, if not most, on the West would happily cross any USAPA picket line on all their days off, to fly to FAR mins, for free, in the highly unlikely event of the NMB releasing USAPA to strike. The East's attempt to negotiate a contract without unity with the West is a sad joke on us all.



We will continue to enjoy the fence we are not getting paid for, while you continue to enjoy your B-scale and slave labor work rules. I think our lot is better than yours. In the current economic climate, after the pot is tapped to get the East parity with the West, we on the West probably wouldn't be getting much of a pay raise, increase in benefits, or better scheduling. Even as he threw our top 400 guys under the bus, Nicolau recognized what parity would cost the West in the next contract. Was that reality part of your "lively debate" when coming up with YOUR "conditions and restrictions?"



Personally, I wouldn't mind a return to the days when management was pilot enemy #1, instead of my fellow union brethren. Should I not be fired by an arbitrator on April 1st, at the request of my union, then maybe I will be one step closer to change from within. In the meantime, should those you have endorsed get elected, then change from within will be a joke and negotiations will continue to be "lip-service" only. Enjoy your B-scale and slave labor work rules.



Have a nice day,

What makes you think there will be picket lines to cross?

We don't care if the westies decide to scab. That's not even news.

If it comes to self-help, it will be a "chaos" style endeavor which the AFA has already established in court as a legal tactic. In fact, they even trademarked the term CHAOS...Creating Havoc Around Our System.

It would be lovely to see you westies out there burning that fuel with empty airplanes as the system became too unreliable for people to book.

 

[Metroyet]

What makes you think there will be picket lines to cross?

We don't care if the westies decide to scab. That's not even news.

If it comes to self-help, it will be a "chaos" style endeavor which the AFA has already established in court as a legal tactic. In fact, they even trademarked the term CHAOS...Creating Havoc Around Our System.

It would be lovely to see you westies out there burning that fuel with empty airplanes as the system became too unreliable for people to book.

being released from sec. 6 is at least 4 years off. Usapa will be long gone by then. Not too worried about chaos.

 

[Atlantic]

They do have a streak when it comes to over there.


Edited for wording. Do not use the S word.

 

[Megasnoop]

East, The timing could be working against the east. People are getting sick of the government bailouts. Obama now wants to bails out people that made bad choices about their mortgage. The American public may not be very sympathetic of a group unwilling to live by their agreements.

Clear, thats the stretch of the decade.
Snoopy

 

[Megasnoop]

What makes you think there will be picket lines to cross?

We don't care if the westies decide to scab. That's not even news.

If it comes to self-help, it will be a "chaos" style endeavor which the AFA has already established in court as a legal tactic. In fact, they even trademarked the term CHAOS...Creating Havoc Around Our System.

It would be lovely to see you westies out there burning that fuel with empty airplanes as the system became too unreliable for people to book.

Good one, NYCBD. But the West scabs will come to Dougs aid. Theyll camp out in hotels throughout the East system, at their own expense, just waiting for that fly-for-free call, flying a delayed and empty plane. Amazing how naive these west guys are. But then, theyve never been released. Theyve never taken the company to the brink.

Obamas going to boot the two Republicans right off the NMB, going back to a Democratic majority. Just see how fast we get a release when Parker doesnt give us the Jan 1, 2010 snapback.

Snooper

 

[Edward]

This is a reminder to all not to use word scab as was used in one post which has been edited. All this does is flame. Thank you.

 

[N924PS]

Good one, NYCBD. But the West scabs will come to Dougs aid. Theyll camp out in hotels throughout the East system, at their own expense, just waiting for that fly-for-free call, flying a delayed and empty plane. Amazing how naive these west guys are. But then, theyve never been released. Theyve never taken the company to the brink.

Snooper

Perhaps you are the naive one. You also have never taken the company to the brink.

I participated in the PSA pilot strike in 1980, for an industry standard contract when the pilots were represented by an independent union, the SFCA (Southwest Flight Crew Asociation). We went on strike for 55 days.

During that time furloughed pilots from Braniff and others were interviewing for our jobs, even as we walked the picket lines. The company was recruiting replacement pilots and was quite successful in obtaining the requesite number of pilots to do so. However, the SFCA members capitulated and the replacements were never hired.

I not only believe many West pilots will do as you describe, but the company will pick up their tab.

In case you haven't been keeping up on current events, or your 401K balance, these are perilous times and many will walk right over your back to get your job. As usual, right battle, wrong timing.

 

[nic4us]

Is that offered in jest? If there's nowadays any evident willingness towards compromise from the west; What's wrong with embracing the existent union, and becoming involved with working out efforts at wahtever protections the west thinks reasonable?

No joke and it has been brought up before, say the idea of 20+ year f/o payscale hitting what is essentially captain pay at 20 years etc...

what is wrong with the existing union is it is designed by its C&BLs to mitigate any influence from the largest crew base in the system i.e. PHX so that the pesky West could never intefer with the stated purpose of trash canning the NIC. USAPA is designed so that a group could break their obligations to others, frankly their word is no good, and I do not believe that is a starting point to form a union. USAPA has to go.