US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 2/24-3/3

[cleardirect]

You've clearly the not the slightest clue, nor ANY understanding whatsoever of what all went into Alpo's demise on the east. That's been extensively covered on these boards long ago. and you may wish to read up on it. Suffice it to say that Nic was but the last straw for a great many.

On your last? = There's just no kind way to describe the "thought" processes of anyone so hopelessly naieve and self-obsessed as to imagine/fantasize/proclaim exaclly how ANY jury ANYWHERE is EVER going to think or rule. Try sitting on a few for starters, then get right back to me on that. As utterly inconceivable as some out west may find the concept; it's even remotely possible that not every one of the 6 billion plus human beings now living share the sense of obvious "Righteousness" attendant to placing anyone with less than half the experience of another ahead of them in "seniority", nor feel that the greatest evil to ever be done on earth would be to to deny any small buncha' poorly behaved, spoiled brats some free candy that they did NOTHING to personally earn. Additonally; some such "misguided" individuals may possiblly find their way onto that jury. Just an observation.

It'll play out in court in whatever way it will.

East,

For complete accuracy. You might want to rethink your "experience" term. More correctly would be LOS at the former employer. Unless you have access to every pilots logbook at both airlines you have NO clue how much experience anyone has.

The famous Sully has been listed as having 19,000 hours. I have talked to many of our pilots out here with 18,000, 20,000 25,000 hours working in the west. Is that how you want to sort the seniority list. By the number of total time (experience)?

You keep fighting the "Nicolau is unfair" fight. That is not what is going to be in front of the jury. This case is about what USAPA did, not what Nicolau did.

The timing could be working against the east. People are getting sick of the government bailouts. Obama now wants to bails out people that made bad choices about their mortgage. The American public may not be very sympathetic of a group unwilling to live by their agreements.

 

[EastUS]

East,

For complete accuracy. You might want to rethink your "experience" term. More correctly would be LOS at the former employer. Unless you have access to every pilots logbook at both airlines you have NO clue how much experience anyone has.

Fair enough. Do please follow that up. Go ahead and tell us all that you've personally, more total time flown, inclusive of your 11 years at AWA, than the persons) out east you seek to become to become "senior" to, that have over 21 years flown there. Go ahead....Tell us all..."Make my day" Everyone can use an occassional good laugh around here

PS: As for LOS? I won't even bother asking exactly why you feel your 11's somehow "superior" to another person's 21 plus......I've a low tolerance level for "It's ALL about MEEE!!".

 

[banshee74]

To my fellow pilots out west....the assumption that USAPA was voted in on only the aspect of seniority is entirely INCORRECT. I'm senior enough that the NIC does not touch me at all...I voted for USAPA because I was tired of ALPA's shortcomings in relation to this company's pilot group, and I felt an in house union would serve this pilot groups interests better. American and Southwest seem satisfied with their own union.

Before you start banging away at your keyboard to tell me how and what I really thought, don't bother, you won't change my vote...now or in the future.

 

[cleardirect]

Fair enough. Do please follow that up. Go ahead and tell us all that you've personally, more total time flown, inclusive of your 11 years at AWA, than the persons) out east you seek to become to become "senior" to, that have over 21 years flown there. Go ahead....Tell us all..."Make my day" Everyone can use an occassional good laugh around here

PS: As for LOS? I won't even bother asking exactly why you feel your 11's somehow "superior" to another person's 21 plus......I've a low tolerance level for "It's ALL about MEEE!!".

I know that you are having a really hard time with the list. It has been almost two years now. The judge is going to settle this soon. It is not my place to justify my place on the list. I did not built the list.

It would be a guess how many hours anyone has. But do you think that I came to AWA with 0 hours? You do realize that people have experience before they got to the former airline correct.

I suggest that you call Mr. Nicolau and ask him why he did what he did. It is interesting that you point out regularly that the west thinks that it is about MEEEE. But ignore your own ambition to ignore an entire process. While trying to impose a single sided biased system that benefits YUOOOOOOO!

 

[Metroyet]

who sees big organizations as responsible, who is anti-union, might think about a big union organization like ALPA deliberately submitting a flawed list. How will that play?

small problem. This "flawed" list is a matter of opinion. You'd have to (god forbid) prove the allegation before a jury will ever even get the notion that the list might be flawed. Sure, I guess you can always hope that the OJ jury will come save the day by ignoring the law and common sense but wouldn't it be nice if you actually HAD a case?

We do. Against USAPA. Not ALPA. They are now the CBA as they've shouted from the rooftops - waving the flags, and jumping up and down. You guys want to play both sides of every argument. That won't work.

We'll see.

 

[EastUS]

It is not my place to justify my place on the list. I did not built the list.

In other words = You really can't justify such nonsense. Understood. The attempted diversion away from simply responding to the following is noted.: "Fair enough. Do please follow that up. Go ahead and tell us all that you've personally, more total time flown, inclusive of your 11 years at AWA, than the persons) out east you seek to become to become "senior" to, that have over 21 years flown there."

Cleardirect: "It would be a guess how many hours anyone has. But do you think that I came to AWA with 0 hours? You do realize that people have experience before they got to the former airline correct." Is it within your imaginings to assume the first solo of your east couterpart (the one with 21 years vs your 11 on the property)..happened on the mainline at US?


For what little it's worth; the nic means nothing to me from any selfish perspective, as it'd effect no changes in my situation in life/work/etc, so you'll need to try some different tack in assigning what I can uncharitably assume you believe to be a "normal" level of presumed selfishness as motive.

 

[Metroyet]

To my fellow pilots out west....the assumption that USAPA was voted in on only the aspect of seniority is entirely INCORRECT. I'm senior enough that the NIC does not touch me at all...I voted for USAPA because I was tired of ALPA's shortcomings in relation to this company's pilot group, and I felt an in house union would serve this pilot groups interests better. American and Southwest seem satisfied with their own union.

Before you start banging away at your keyboard to tell me how and what I really thought, don't bother, you won't change my vote...now or in the future.

Well, as a group, the OVERWHELMING preponderance of the evidence suggests otherwise. Under the expert advisement of Lee Seeham, USAPA was kind enough to supply limitless exhibits, recorded on various mediums that specifically state that the nic. is their reason for being...remember the famous van ride.

You Tube is going to play a large role in bringing USAPA to justice. Perhaps Lee should have consulted a few teenagers before allowing the meeting to be taped.

 

[nic4us]

To my fellow pilots out west....the assumption that USAPA was voted in on only the aspect of seniority is entirely INCORRECT. I'm senior enough that the NIC does not touch me at all...I voted for USAPA because I was tired of ALPA's shortcomings in relation to this company's pilot group, and I felt an in house union would serve this pilot groups interests better. American and Southwest seem satisfied with their own union.

Before you start banging away at your keyboard to tell me how and what I really thought, don't bother, you won't change my vote...now or in the future.

Perhaps we could win your vote and support if another alternative was put forth. Perhaps an in house union that takes the best USAPA has to offer, but has a different C&BLs that follow a more democratic process, and allows for implementation of the NIC, while contractual incentives meter what the east percieves as shortcomings of the NIC.

 

[EastUS]

....and allows for implementation of the NIC, while contractual incentives meter what the east percieves as shortcomings of the NIC.

Is that offered in jest? If there's nowadays any evident willingness towards compromise from the west; What's wrong with embracing the existent union, and becoming involved with working out efforts at wahtever protections the west thinks reasonable?

 

[cleardirect]

Just the important part of the letter to Lee Seham. Once again it seems that USAPA can not manage to follow their own constitution. How deep is this hole going to get before USAPA stops digging?

Because it took that position, these changes have already been put in place, without any ratification vote at all.

On February 3rd, 2009, USAPA apparently changed its mind and decided to send the negotiated agreements out to ratification to all US Airways pilot members despite USAPA’s constitution specifically providing that changes in agreements are subject to ratification by the “affected pilots,â€￾ and only West pilots are affected by these negotiated changes. Thus, the referendum election is being conduct in violation of USAPA’s Constitution.

In light of this glaring violation, I specifically request that USAPA impound and not count the ballots, cancel the ratification referendum and resubmit it only to West pilot members.

Sincerely,

Jeffrey Freund

 

[sharktooth]

... but has a different C&BLs that follow a more democratic process, ....

How can one be more "democratic" than majority rule? Would you count the votes differently, perhaps giving each "west" pilot two votes and each "east" pilot one vote, like they do in most dictatorships?

Your confusion is, well, confusing. and then you follow it up with, more confusion?

I would estimate that you will not, over the next ten to fifteen years, get a ratified merger contract from the east with any reference to the "nic" in it. YMMV.

 

[EastUS]

Just the important part of the letter to Lee Seham. Once again it seems that USAPA can not manage to follow their own constitution. How deep is this hole going to get before USAPA stops digging?

Difficult to say, I'd think. How vast is the, as yet unchartable, and ever-expanding universe of empty west rhetoric likely to become?

 

[Freighterguynow]

At the end of the day I suspect these little gems will be included in the final findings of fact.

1. East and West belonged to ALPA when the merger occurred.
2. ALPA had, and continues to have, a published merger policy.

However one issue will not be a finding of fact, but rather an issue of law, and that is that USAPA, when it replaced ALPA, became responsible for all agreements and contractual issues that existed at the time that USAPA became bargaining agent and had a duty to enforce any such agreements.

Does anyone have any reasonable problem with the facts that I contend will be the entered into the record as the end result of the fact stage of any proceedings? If so, what issues do I have wrong?

You forgot number 10 as quoted from ALPA head mustache:

10. Some members what will happen if pilots from one group or another sue the Association either to block implementation or to force implementation of the Nicolau award. I repeat - there is no required timetable for implementation of the award. That only happens with a single collective bargaining agreement.

 

[Metroyet]

How can one be more "democratic" than majority rule? Would you count the votes differently, perhaps giving each "west" pilot two votes and each "east" pilot one vote, like they do in most dictatorships?

That's what Dual Ratification was all about...before you guys attempted to steal it...like dictators.

 

[EastUS]

That's what Dual Ratification was all about...before you guys attempted to steal it...like dictators.

Whew!..You folks out there truly are an "abused" and "oppressed minority"...and to think that all you're loudly demanding is merely to have your newest hires valued at over 17 years worth of other people's work lives..and have, as some of your most strident advocates, individuals that "only" seek to have their 11 years valued far in excess of another's 21 plus years. It's truly tragic, and you have my deepest sympathy for your plight.......