US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 12/16-22

[Toothy Grin]

Attended the PHL council meeting the other day. USAPA is operating in the black with 60% of the eligible members paying dues. They are budgeted for the normal expenses of operating the union and the litigation going on right now, and still show operations in the black.

Is THAT starting to set in yet?

As far as how things went in court, we understand that Judge Wake had a very significant and noticeable change in demeanor for the better towards the east team compared to the impressions of the October hearing.

Not sure what that means, if anything, but if the westies think his attitude in October gave an indication of how this would proceed, then that wind has been sucked from your sails in December.

Busdriver,
This is not wholly directed to you, but I read the last page of comments and then flipped through some posts from others that had me wondering if we were all at the same hearing. Maybe they were not, but I was....

USAPA is operating in the black, big deal. USAPA may very well be operating in the black but this case will be ruled upon by legal facts, not bottom lines. From my limited legal background it sounded as though not too many requests for answers have been posed by West counsel. Thus, a small legal tab for the East. This may be about to change.

If you had attended the December hearing you would know that USAPA's legal counsel were crying to the Judge for extensions in providing briefings and answers. Seham asked several times for a longer time to prepare. Several times he refered to the West counsel as being a "big law firm" and we are just a few lawyers. The judge was apparently not in the mood to be manipulated and if the change in "attitude" for the better you mention was Jugde Wake stating "no, you have sufficient time" [paraphrased] and "we're all working hard, not just you" then I don't know what you mean. If anything it appears his demeanor went from bad to worse.

There was a point when the USAPA counsel had to ask for all of the future court dates because they didn't know what was scheduled even after the dates were repeated a couple of times. I found USAPA's counsel to be unprepared and unfocused. I remember at one point Jude Wake asked Seham (sp/?) a question, but he had no answer. To be fair, this also happened to West counsel, but the question at the time seemed more exploratory, rather than why don't you know....

Jude Wake is eager to settle this matter and wants to rule from the bench. However, he said he has no legal power to force West pilots to forgo a trial by jury, that is their legal right. then there is the matter of a possible class action lawsuit and determining which class.

The reason the final hearing is thought to be settled by April, May (if not heard by a jury) is that West counsel is doing a careful job to seal their case. Judge Wake seems to understand this and is pushing them to wrap it up as quickly as possible. The later hearing date is the result of West counsel requesting more information and is not at the direction of USAPA.

I really have to say it was interesting and amusing to watch Seham try to squirm out of being called as a witness. Acutally, I was a bit embarassed for the East pilots. Sorry to say it, but West pilots counsel was prepared and professional, US Airways Corporate counsel was prepared and professional (and didn't even need to be there) and USAPA's counsel came off as a bunch of frat boys who had just came in from drinking all night.

I'm sorry. I know that sounds really disrespectful, but I'm just sharing my thoughts on what I observed while sitting on the defendent's side of the courtroom. It just seemed that the Judge, West counsel and US Corp counsel were ready to dig in and there was a bit of bumbling from USAPA counsel. The hearing ending due to the court reporter calling it quits, she was tired, but she had been working and stayed about an hour overtime. Nice.

A quick comment about the judge. He is a really intelligent man. He comes across as concerned about this matter and the legalities, therein. I know some of you are saying he favors this one or that one, but one thing I remember him referring to again and again is something to the effect of "what is the law" or "the ruling will be determined by the laws". I really do not get the feeling he is playing favorites. I did see that he is interested in the legality of the suit and all supporting material, even if it might take a while.

In the end, the side that presents the clearest legal support wether it be the bumblers or the professionals will win.

sorry bout all the typos and errors, but it is late and just dropped in for a minute.

 

[Toothy Grin]

Measured by compensation and ethical behavior, we are now the bottom of the barrel.

I think the moderator should pin this...

 

[Freighterguynow]

As far as Eric and Dave I believe ALPA was too afraid of the consequences if they put the U MEC into trusteeship. Turns out they had probably lost the property anyhow...

Atlas, Polar Air Cargo Crewmembers Vote to Join Teamsters Union

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/atla...&dist=msr_1

 

[nycbusdriver]

At $20,000/year difference, or less? Who's spinning now?

 

[electricjet98]

For 20 years west pilots have earned less than the East, undercutting them. The average east pilot has made one million dollars more in their career.

I'd like to know how east pilots will have a million more in career earnings when a large percentage of them have spent years on furlough. Extrapolating career earnings from a contract means nothing when you've been kicked to the curb.

 

[cleardirect]

Attended the PHL council meeting the other day. USAPA is operating in the black with 60% of the eligible members paying dues. They are budgeted for the normal expenses of operating the union and the litigation going on right now, and still show operations in the black.

Since the domicile reps have chosen not to update the masses in several weeks the rest of us would like to know what happened. Mark King must be an amazing treasurer. For him to budget into normal operating expenses several hundreds of thousands of dollar for legal work. How did he see that coming. But wait the legal team said that this case “had no meritâ€￾. Yet he went ahead and budgeted anyway. Good planning.

A union with 60% paying dues a power house.

As far as how things went in court, we understand that Judge Wake had a very significant and noticeable change in demeanor for the better towards the east team compared to the impressions of the October hearing.

Could you give us some examples please. Anything that the judge said specifically to give that impression? You will forgive me if I don’t believe the USAPA leadership if they just say because they got the impression. Any solid evidence of transcripts or statements from the bench would be helpful.

Not sure what that means, if anything, but if the westies think his attitude in October gave an indication of how this would proceed, then that wind has been sucked from your sails in December.

What did the judge indicate to “suck the wind from our sailsâ€￾?

 

[electricjet98]

Southwest's Kelly a Wealth Destroyer?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gary Kelly, Southwest Airlines
Score: 6
Southwest’s low score may come as a surprise considering it’s arguably among the best-managed airlines. But it’s an airline; the only one in the S&P 500. That means planes, airport fees and lots of competition. The market is far from wild about the value of its assets. In the EM sector rankings, Southwest was grouped with other transportation companies, all of which performed better. Southwest’s EM ranged between -.5 percent (-.005) and -0.9 percent (almost -1 percent) over the 2005-07 period. While its SEC filings show a profit during this time, when Southwest’s off-balance sheet leases and other adjustments are accounted for, the picture reverses. For example, applying those adjustments to Southwest’s 2007 results increases its invested capital by $5.9 billion, or 35 percent. The $1.7 billion capital charge on this amount exceeded its $1.5 billion operating cash flow, resulting in a negative Economic Margin.


For entire article:

http://www.chiefexecutive.net/ME2/dirmod.a...AE9E1913E50C156

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

....snip


What did the judge indicate to “suck the wind from our sailsâ€￾?

Continuing with the nautical theme:


The east thought they were electing to run this pilot group(?) with the USS Ronald Regan ruling the day.

Instead what they got was the SS Minnow, leaks, crew, and all.

Furthermore, the Skipper is nowhere to be found, and his first mate apparently is a bumbling, blathering fool.

"Ahoy usapa! Ye looks like yer runnin' low in the water there!!! And there's a squall headed yer way!"

 

[Phoenix]

...

A union with 60% paying dues...

Gasp... ALPA would have had to have eliminated the caviar and chateaubriand by now. Nah.. they would have just had lots of assessments.

If USAPA is so broke, where are the assessments? And why are they paying medical insurance for furloughees?

 

[Phoenix]

I've looked into this guy Lee Seeham and all I see is an attorney who has been on the losing side of some pretty big cases. Anyone else know about his prior track record?

Though not a "court case" per se, his involvement with the historic extrication of ALPA will always be remembered fondly by John Prater and his august team of "legal experts". One day of freedom from ALPA extortion is like a thousand at Disney World.

 

[cleardirect]

Gasp... ALPA would have had to have eliminated the caviar and chateaubriand by now. Nah.. they would have just had lots of assessments.

What does ALPA have to do with this? ALPA has been off the property 8 months but still being blamed for all the faults in the world. When is the east going to let go of ALPA?

If USAPA is so broke, where are the assessments? And why are they paying medical insurance for furloughees?

Who said they were broke? I said Mark is a genius because he planned ahead even though Seham said that the case had no merit. A union that can support very expensive multiple law suits. Provide all of the required or promised services all on 60% participation. Could it be that they are charging way to much than?

 

[Elevation]

Does anybody know who USAPA is using as our professional negotiators? I thought they promised this but have not heard what firm they are using.

 

[Phoenix]

What does ALPA have to do with this? ALPA has been off the property 8 months but still being blamed for all the faults in the world. When is the east going to let go of ALPA?

Let go? When has the east ever been accused of being a white knuckled Nicolau clinger?

 

[luvthe9]

TWO MORE CARRIERS DUMP ALPO
PRESS RELEASE
Atlas, Polar Air Cargo Crewmembers Vote to Join Teamsters Union

Group Of Nearly 900 Workers Vote To Join Union By a 2-1 Margin



WASHINGTON, Dec 19, 2008 -- By a more than 2 to 1 margin, nearly 900 crewmembers at Atlas Air, Inc. and Polar Air Cargo Worldwide have voted to join the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, said Jim Hoffa, Teamsters General President.


"We are excited to welcome the Atlas and Polar flight crewmembers to the Teamsters," Hoffa said. "Our Airline Division, under the leadership of Capt. David Bourne, will help negotiate a strong contract for the crewmembers. The Teamsters will also provide accountable representation."


The crewmembers have been represented by an association, the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), but the association does not have the focus, strength and cargo experience of the Teamsters to represent their interests.


"Now, the Atlas and Polar crewmembers will receive strong Teamster representation and they will have an independent local union backed by the 1.4 million member Teamsters," Bourne said. "The Teamsters have the necessary resources to help our newest members achieve a more secure future."


The Teamsters will also allow the crewmembers more decision-making power through their Teamster local union for the issues that matter most to them.


Crewmembers voted by telephone and over the Internet since November 19, and the votes were tallied today. The election was administered by the National Mediation Board.


The Teamsters Airline Division represents more than 40,000 workers in the aviation industry in every craft and class. Founded in 1903, the International Brotherhood of Teamsters represents 1.4 million hardworking men and women in the United States, Canada and Puerto Rico.


SOURCE: International Brotherhood of Teamsters

 

[cleardirect]

Let go? When has the east ever been accused of being a white knuckled Nicolau clinger?

What???

I am missing the entire logic connection there. 99% of the time it is a eastie that brings up ALPA. That discussion is over. They have no bearing on the next 18 months.

“white knuckled Nicolau clingerâ€￾? The discussion was only 60% of the pilots here think that USAPA is worth paying money to. That they can provide any fair representation. ALPA does not enter into that discussion. USAPA must stand or fall on their own choices and leadership. 40% of the pilots do not agree with that direction.

Bringing ALPA into the discussion is nothing but a distraction or a deflection from the current CBA and the merits of their performance. But then again if I were a USAPA supporter and saw the performance so far from the self appointed leaders I would want to talk about something else also.