US AFA topic-ALL AFA issues go here
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BajaBabe
Veteran
- Aug 9, 2005
- 504
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I was more concerned with Pat Friends response boy how did she ever get her last name. Oh boy Delta this is the woman who eats her young and do not tell me she does not stir the pot AFA USAirways 2000 agreement in the elevator with her and Clare Burt they will not know that the Social Security off set is not gone by thr time they figure it out we will have another contract 
sharonstoneseat
Advanced
- Nov 27, 2002
- 138
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Accusing someone of being drunk on the job is libelous and you may have noticed that no one commented on that particuliar post because it is so over the top.
Except you.
BajaBabe
Veteran
- Aug 9, 2005
- 504
- 7
This entire topic is ugly i know what it is like to be judged by this board. The respectful thing is to say its a new day it is what it is. We can never move forward if we stay bitter Pat and Liza will have tol live with the reality of there actions. I think it best that I ZIP it.
No more libelous than anything else people have been accused of, especially on this forum. But nice try. When did I say on the job? All I did was exactly what everyone here did, take a post's idea and repeat it. I don't know if that post is true or not true, using the word "if" should have made that obvious. I am not there, just like none of you, on the East, are here. Now back on topic......imo, the recommendation made by the hearing board was an obvious one: "work out the personal stuff, and get back to working hard on what's good for the FA groups." 
Travelpro72
Veteran
- Jan 30, 2005
- 4,964
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What's good for the flight attendant group? Well for starters getting rid of those yahoo crackers in office out west would be a start. 
No officer was accused of being a drunk but a few sure WERE accused of being thieves and liars.
No officer was accused of being a drunk but a few sure WERE accused of being thieves and liars.
sharonstoneseat
Advanced
- Nov 27, 2002
- 138
- 36
No more libelous than anything else people have been accused of, especially on this forum. But nice try. When did I say on the job? All I did was exactly what everyone here did, take a post's idea and repeat it. I don't know if that post is true or not true, using the word "if" should have made that obvious. I am not there, just like none of you, on the East, are here. Now back on topic......imo, the recommendation made by the hearing board was an obvious one: "work out the personal stuff, and get back to working hard on what's good for the FA groups."
Backpedaling on your smarmy reference to a drinking issue and doing a little CYA dance?
Really a friendly word of warning, I have attended many PHX LEC meetings and character assasination is a constant tactic used there. And please don't call me on that one because I will give you specifics even from the last meeting. You would be very wise to not employ their debate style under any circumstances. The posters here may get heated but they also recognize when someone has overstepped even US Aviations very liberal lines
What we are examining is the findings (theft) of the Hearing Board. This is about business and contract negotiations and the facts about the suitability of those involved. There should never have been any "personal stuff." Lisa and Jeff's constant justificaitons for doing things that a 10 year old knows is wrong and then testifying that they did it because they know that the East would have done the same if the situation had been reversed is so juvenile and insulting in it's reasoning that it is paralyzing.
There is a call out on the AFA66 forum for people with business and contract experience to help in the Union office and committees. Do you really think that rational people with good reputations will want to associate themselves with AFA66 with it's present officers? I don't. I think you are going to get an office full of undisciplined zealots and that things will only deteriorate further.
If you doubt that then take the complete transcipts of the findings of the Hearing Board and read it out loud to an objective outsider and see what reactions you get.
I am not backpedaling, although yes, I was being slightly tongue in cheek, nor am I using "tactics" from the "west office." And no, coloring a threat a "friendly warning" will not work. I did, with my post, use the very same tactics I observe here on this, very exciting, forum. It really is a very entertaining forum. So, just because your opinion as a west person completely differs from mine, is no reason to call anyone who might, in the future, actually put a little effort into that understaffed office irrational. You know why? Because its about working for your fellow FAs! I agree with you on one thing, there should never have been "personal stuff" but there was, just like there was and is in every political office, east and west, even the POTUS office has "personal stuff." Why would I call you on attendance of LEC meetings? Thats a good thing. Are you flipping kidding me? I applaud you on that. You know why? Because so few people even put that tiny effort into getting facts and being involved.
Travelpro: Are you offering to step in for those "yahoo crackers"?
Travelpro: Are you offering to step in for those "yahoo crackers"?
cactusflyer
Senior
So, SSDA has established that they think it's okay to lie and steal. Thanks for clearing that up for us. It's also nice to know you and the rest of the "friends of Jeff society" have such high morals. Some of us have a higher standard by which we choose to live. Jeff stealing those papers AND lying about it is just the tip of the iceberg. He has zero personal integrity. Some certain junior FA's know exactly what I'm talking about.
I have to second Sharon on this. Print out that decision and go read it out loud to someone not even part of US and see what they say about all 3 of them. They will at you like you are crazy for even thinking what they've done is okay. They lie and they steal. They don't communicate and if you think just getting rid of one of them will fix it. Dream on. The problem is bigger than one of them, but you don't see that because you too close to the people involved or you're one of the "volunteers" walking away with $600.000 a month or more in expenses all the while our reserves are barely getting by.
Go sell your propaganda somewhere else 'cause sister we aren't buying it. I took the time to read the infamous decision and I do have the facts. They stole, then they lied, then the 3 of them proceeded to behave like children following that act of thievery. I have to wonder what else are they lying about? If that is what you want representing you, then fine. Many of us don't and up until my last day here I will be helping recall all of them.
I just read Mike Flores' lastest e-line. I'd like to be a fly on that wall when they meet for negotiations. Yep, keeping them in when they aren't trusted is going to get us a GREAT contract and in 3 months. That's what Jeff said "3 months we'll have a contract to vote on" and he's only lied just that once to it must be the truth.
I have to second Sharon on this. Print out that decision and go read it out loud to someone not even part of US and see what they say about all 3 of them. They will at you like you are crazy for even thinking what they've done is okay. They lie and they steal. They don't communicate and if you think just getting rid of one of them will fix it. Dream on. The problem is bigger than one of them, but you don't see that because you too close to the people involved or you're one of the "volunteers" walking away with $600.000 a month or more in expenses all the while our reserves are barely getting by.
Go sell your propaganda somewhere else 'cause sister we aren't buying it. I took the time to read the infamous decision and I do have the facts. They stole, then they lied, then the 3 of them proceeded to behave like children following that act of thievery. I have to wonder what else are they lying about? If that is what you want representing you, then fine. Many of us don't and up until my last day here I will be helping recall all of them.
I just read Mike Flores' lastest e-line. I'd like to be a fly on that wall when they meet for negotiations. Yep, keeping them in when they aren't trusted is going to get us a GREAT contract and in 3 months. That's what Jeff said "3 months we'll have a contract to vote on" and he's only lied just that once to it must be the truth.
songbirdstew
Senior
- Sep 10, 2003
- 478
- 51
Another case of it's OK to lie, steal and cheat---just don't get caught. This is what our union dollars go towards. I've always been disgusted with AFA---this is just the icing on the cake. I'm hoping those of you that have the votes will recall these two clowns.
AFA HEARING BOARD RENDERS DECISION - COUNCIL 66 MEC PRESIDENT AND MEC SECRETARY/TREASURER FOUND GUILTY
This week the AFA Hearing Board rendered their decision related to the charges filed against Council 66 MEC President, Lisa LeCarre and Council 66 MEC Secretary/Treasurer, Jeff Albers.
The Hearing Board is comprised of three members of our peers. The Hearing Board found Ms. LeCarre and Mr. Albers guilty of violating Article X.1.(j):
j. Doing any act contrary to the best interests of the Union or its members.
The board clearly found Ms. LeCarre and Mr. Albers guilty of theft, lying, and breaching the trust of the joint negotiations committee. Although the Hearing Board did not sanction Ms. LeCarre or Mr. Albers, the board did find the charged parties in violation of the above charge and deferred any punishment to the members of Council 66.
In a recent communication to her members, Ms. LeCarre referred to the charges and subsequent hearing as "an unfortunate situation". It is far more than that.
Since this incident and the resulting charges came to light, East negotiators have continued to work professionally to reach a single agreement. Even with the board's decision, East negotiators have a duty to continue negotiating. We will do so.
The East negotiators commitment to our members is to reach a single agreement that meets your needs- even if it has to be with committee members that are guilty of, "doing any act contrary to the best interest of the Union and its members".
The Hearing Boards Decision and Order is copied below:
Decision and Order of the Hearing Board
Based upon the facts presented to the Hearing Board, the Board finds that LeCarre and Albers knowingly copied the confidential USAPA proposal that was kept in Flores' suitcase. In doing so they deliberately violated the explicit conditions established by USAPA for its use by the JNT. Though Albers and LeCarre deny that the document was removed from Flores' bag, the evidence adduced at the hearing supports a different conclusion.
Flores, as is his normal practice, had left his suitcase at the Council 66 office on the previous evening after the JNT's meeting had ended. Because of his involvement in arranging the publicity tour for the Flight 1549 crew, Flores did not participate in any meetings or caucus at the Council 66 office on January 29. His sole purpose for stopping at the Council 66 office about 1 pm on January 29, was to inform LeCarre that he was leaving his bag in the conference room until negotiations commenced the following week. There was no evidence presented supporting Albers claim that Flores, or anyone else, had taken contract proposals or files from Flores' bag and placed them on the conference table and had left then their either before or after Flores showed up at the Council 66 office on January 29. For that reason, the Board finds that the record supports Flores' contention that Albers removed the USAPA proposal from Flores' bag without permission.
While this conduct represents a serious breach of trust between colleagues on the JNT, the Board does not believe that LeCarre and Albers should be expelled from AFA. As elected officers, LeCarre and Albers have been charged with the responsibility to act in the best interest of the membership, and to work with their colleagues and fellow officers on the JNT in negotiating a single contract for the US Airways flight attendants- both East and West. The unauthorized copying of the USAPA proposal is inconsistent with that duty.
On the other hand, there was no evidence presented, nor any allegation made by Flores, indicating that either LeCarre or Albers, breached their obligation to keep the USAPA proposal confidential. In addition, despite the mutual lack of trust between the East and West members of the JNT, they have continued to meet with the Company in collective bargaining negotiations-which should be their sole priority after over three years of negotiations. Expulsion of LeCarre and is simply not warranted based upon the facts presented, and most importantly, would do nothing but further hinder and delay the negotiation of a single contract for the US Airways flight attendants.
To be clear, the Hearing Board does find that LeCarre and Albers violated Article X.1. (j) of the AFA C&B by removing the USAPA proposal from Flores' suitcase without permission and making copies. Those actions were clearly, "contrary to the best interest of the Union and its members, and negatively impacted the progress of negotiations. The Board is particularly disturbed by the complete lack of remorse shown by LeCarre and Albers at the hearing. Even though Albers admitted that he lied to Flores at their March 11 meeting, Albers insists that he would copy the proposal again for the "best interests" of the West flight attendants. LeCarre also failed to acknowledge any wrongdoing and told the Board that she would do it again since she believes the East members of the JNT would have done the same thing if they had been in their position.
In conclusion the Board regrets that this dispute was not resolved before the June 24 hearing. But it wasn't, and as a result the Board is charged with enforcing the provisions of the AFA C&B. Therefore having heard testimony and evidence from both parties, the Board finds that LeCarre and Albers violated Article X.1.(j) and they are directed to refrain from any similar conduct in the future. Furthermore the Board directs the parties to make every reasonable effort to rebuild their mutual trust on the JNT and to continue to negotiate a single contract for the US Airways flight attendants.
The events that led to the hearing were clearly preventable. Unfortunately, once the events occurred and there was never any acknowledgment, admission or apology, a hearing had to be held. In a previous communication, I indicated that I would not be the one to judge the conduct of Ms. LeCarre or Mr. Albers.
The Hearing Board has spoken.
Thank you,
Mike Flores, President
The US Airways Master Executive Council
AFA-CWA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AFA HEARING BOARD RENDERS DECISION - COUNCIL 66 MEC PRESIDENT AND MEC SECRETARY/TREASURER FOUND GUILTY
This week the AFA Hearing Board rendered their decision related to the charges filed against Council 66 MEC President, Lisa LeCarre and Council 66 MEC Secretary/Treasurer, Jeff Albers.
The Hearing Board is comprised of three members of our peers. The Hearing Board found Ms. LeCarre and Mr. Albers guilty of violating Article X.1.(j):
j. Doing any act contrary to the best interests of the Union or its members.
The board clearly found Ms. LeCarre and Mr. Albers guilty of theft, lying, and breaching the trust of the joint negotiations committee. Although the Hearing Board did not sanction Ms. LeCarre or Mr. Albers, the board did find the charged parties in violation of the above charge and deferred any punishment to the members of Council 66.
In a recent communication to her members, Ms. LeCarre referred to the charges and subsequent hearing as "an unfortunate situation". It is far more than that.
Since this incident and the resulting charges came to light, East negotiators have continued to work professionally to reach a single agreement. Even with the board's decision, East negotiators have a duty to continue negotiating. We will do so.
The East negotiators commitment to our members is to reach a single agreement that meets your needs- even if it has to be with committee members that are guilty of, "doing any act contrary to the best interest of the Union and its members".
The Hearing Boards Decision and Order is copied below:
Decision and Order of the Hearing Board
Based upon the facts presented to the Hearing Board, the Board finds that LeCarre and Albers knowingly copied the confidential USAPA proposal that was kept in Flores' suitcase. In doing so they deliberately violated the explicit conditions established by USAPA for its use by the JNT. Though Albers and LeCarre deny that the document was removed from Flores' bag, the evidence adduced at the hearing supports a different conclusion.
Flores, as is his normal practice, had left his suitcase at the Council 66 office on the previous evening after the JNT's meeting had ended. Because of his involvement in arranging the publicity tour for the Flight 1549 crew, Flores did not participate in any meetings or caucus at the Council 66 office on January 29. His sole purpose for stopping at the Council 66 office about 1 pm on January 29, was to inform LeCarre that he was leaving his bag in the conference room until negotiations commenced the following week. There was no evidence presented supporting Albers claim that Flores, or anyone else, had taken contract proposals or files from Flores' bag and placed them on the conference table and had left then their either before or after Flores showed up at the Council 66 office on January 29. For that reason, the Board finds that the record supports Flores' contention that Albers removed the USAPA proposal from Flores' bag without permission.
While this conduct represents a serious breach of trust between colleagues on the JNT, the Board does not believe that LeCarre and Albers should be expelled from AFA. As elected officers, LeCarre and Albers have been charged with the responsibility to act in the best interest of the membership, and to work with their colleagues and fellow officers on the JNT in negotiating a single contract for the US Airways flight attendants- both East and West. The unauthorized copying of the USAPA proposal is inconsistent with that duty.
On the other hand, there was no evidence presented, nor any allegation made by Flores, indicating that either LeCarre or Albers, breached their obligation to keep the USAPA proposal confidential. In addition, despite the mutual lack of trust between the East and West members of the JNT, they have continued to meet with the Company in collective bargaining negotiations-which should be their sole priority after over three years of negotiations. Expulsion of LeCarre and is simply not warranted based upon the facts presented, and most importantly, would do nothing but further hinder and delay the negotiation of a single contract for the US Airways flight attendants.
To be clear, the Hearing Board does find that LeCarre and Albers violated Article X.1. (j) of the AFA C&B by removing the USAPA proposal from Flores' suitcase without permission and making copies. Those actions were clearly, "contrary to the best interest of the Union and its members, and negatively impacted the progress of negotiations. The Board is particularly disturbed by the complete lack of remorse shown by LeCarre and Albers at the hearing. Even though Albers admitted that he lied to Flores at their March 11 meeting, Albers insists that he would copy the proposal again for the "best interests" of the West flight attendants. LeCarre also failed to acknowledge any wrongdoing and told the Board that she would do it again since she believes the East members of the JNT would have done the same thing if they had been in their position.
In conclusion the Board regrets that this dispute was not resolved before the June 24 hearing. But it wasn't, and as a result the Board is charged with enforcing the provisions of the AFA C&B. Therefore having heard testimony and evidence from both parties, the Board finds that LeCarre and Albers violated Article X.1.(j) and they are directed to refrain from any similar conduct in the future. Furthermore the Board directs the parties to make every reasonable effort to rebuild their mutual trust on the JNT and to continue to negotiate a single contract for the US Airways flight attendants.
The events that led to the hearing were clearly preventable. Unfortunately, once the events occurred and there was never any acknowledgment, admission or apology, a hearing had to be held. In a previous communication, I indicated that I would not be the one to judge the conduct of Ms. LeCarre or Mr. Albers.
The Hearing Board has spoken.
Thank you,
Mike Flores, President
The US Airways Master Executive Council
AFA-CWA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Songbird, if those two get voted out, the MIA VP gets to take over. Which would be absolutely no improvement. And still, nobody pushing for a recall has offered a better option to replace the current officers, or any option at all. That is what disturbs me. Sounds like all of AFA has left you with a bad taste. I am truly sorry to hear that. It might be wishful thinking, but I really believe that a union is a good thing for our workforce, at least at this company. But then, I have never worked for an airline with no union.
How very high and mighty of you Cactus, I also think its ok to steal candy from a baby, trip up old people, and be a bully. Any other words to put in my mouth? What exactly is it that "certain junior FAs" know? I never said lying and stealing is ok, I said I agree with the board's recommendation, everyone needs to grow up and move forward. I also said that no political office is without disagreements, maybe even dishonesty. Just look at Dick Cheney. Am I going to have to defend myself against your ridiculous insinuation that I somehow get "$600" in expenses? Ok. You have absolutely no knowledge of my financial situation. You are laughably wrong in your implication that I am either too close, or somehow padding my pockets. I think I said before that I know this office because I answer phones there every so often. I guess actually knowing the faces of everyone who represents me is being "too close." Don't worry, I am just as poor as every other reserve, and sometimes wonder if I will have to make use of the Pantry of Love. How dare you assume that this is anything but MY conclusion, MY opinion? I have read that decision as well and saw it in a different light than you, but I would never accuse your pushing for a recall as spreading propaganda. I ain't selling nothing, just urging people to view the bigger picture and not believe everything they read. Every story has 3 sides, 2 viewpoints and the truth.
How very high and mighty of you Cactus, I also think its ok to steal candy from a baby, trip up old people, and be a bully.
Any other words to put in my mouth? What exactly is it that "certain junior FAs" know? I never said lying and stealing is ok, I said I agree with the board's recommendation, everyone needs to grow up and move forward. I also said that no political office is without disagreements, maybe even dishonesty. Just look at Dick Cheney. Am I going to have to defend myself against your ridiculous insinuation that I somehow get "$600" in expenses? Ok. You have absolutely no knowledge of my financial situation. You are laughably wrong in your implication that I am either too close, or somehow padding my pockets. I think I said before that I know this office because I answer phones there every so often. I guess actually knowing the faces of everyone who represents me is being "too close." Don't worry, I am just as poor as every other reserve, and sometimes wonder if I will have to make use of the Pantry of Love. How dare you assume that this is anything but MY conclusion, MY opinion? I have read that decision as well and saw it in a different light than you, but I would never accuse your pushing for a recall as spreading propaganda. I ain't selling nothing, just urging people to view the bigger picture and not believe everything they read. Every story has 3 sides, 2 viewpoints and the truth.
2clippedwings
Veteran
Songbird, if those two get voted out, the MIA VP gets to take over. Which would be absolutely no improvement. And still, nobody pushing for a recall has offered a better option to replace the current officers, or any option at all. That is what disturbs me. Sounds like all of AFA has left you with a bad taste. I am truly sorry to hear that. It might be wishful thinking, but I really believe that a union is a good thing for our workforce, at least at this company. But then, I have never worked for an airline with no union.
How very high and mighty of you Cactus, I also think its ok to steal candy from a baby, trip up old people, and be a bully.
The truth is that your local leadership was found guilty of ethics violations, showed no remorse whatsoever and is still permitted to negotiate on behalf of ALL OF US? (joint negotiations affect all f/a's).
No thanks.
But to had insult to injury our national leadership's response is pitifully weak and implies tacit approval of those unethical actions.
No thanks.
I'll be busy contacting AFA leadership to express my disgust with the outcome of this hearing.
I certainly hope my fellow union members will do the same.
cactusflyer
Senior
SSDA-
They lied. As someone once told me, "I don't care if it was a chinese take out menu in Mike's bag, it was NOT theirs to take and copy". I agree. I don't care that the hearing board wants them to "work it out". The hearing board said that because they didn't have the balls to take action. International NEVER does. I don't want liars and thieves representing me in anything, negotiations, grievances, safety issues. NOTHING. They have no integrity. There is not one d**n thing in that hearing board decision that exemplifies integrity or honesty. Again, I challenge you to take the decision outside of US and let someone unbiased read it...they will think they are all wack jobs.
While YOU may not be walking away with more than $600.00 a month in reimbursed expenses, others are. Don't believe me, ask to see the expenditures then come back here and let us know what you see. If you take the time to look, as a reserve you will definitely be angry because I am and I'm a reserve too. As far as Jeff's personal integrity, I opened my mouth in the heat of the moment and won't comment further on that here. If you're really interested PM me, it you're not, that's all good too.
I came out swinging because you seemed to be willing to take a no holds barred stance on this. You are correct, there are 2 sides and the truth. My point is the MEC's side it NOT the truth and I expect more from all 3 of them. That is why I believe in the recall. When people come out and say lets just move on, I think, in my opinion, it's a cop out and sends a message to them that their actions are okay.
They lied. As someone once told me, "I don't care if it was a chinese take out menu in Mike's bag, it was NOT theirs to take and copy". I agree. I don't care that the hearing board wants them to "work it out". The hearing board said that because they didn't have the balls to take action. International NEVER does. I don't want liars and thieves representing me in anything, negotiations, grievances, safety issues. NOTHING. They have no integrity. There is not one d**n thing in that hearing board decision that exemplifies integrity or honesty. Again, I challenge you to take the decision outside of US and let someone unbiased read it...they will think they are all wack jobs.
While YOU may not be walking away with more than $600.00 a month in reimbursed expenses, others are. Don't believe me, ask to see the expenditures then come back here and let us know what you see. If you take the time to look, as a reserve you will definitely be angry because I am and I'm a reserve too. As far as Jeff's personal integrity, I opened my mouth in the heat of the moment and won't comment further on that here. If you're really interested PM me, it you're not, that's all good too.
I came out swinging because you seemed to be willing to take a no holds barred stance on this. You are correct, there are 2 sides and the truth. My point is the MEC's side it NOT the truth and I expect more from all 3 of them. That is why I believe in the recall. When people come out and say lets just move on, I think, in my opinion, it's a cop out and sends a message to them that their actions are okay.
Furloughd4now
Veteran
You can discuss semantics all you want but these people were found GUILTY and are allowed to go back to negotiating on the liveliehoods of over 6000 people? :down:
Sorry, but I'll be writing a letter as well...
Sorry, but I'll be writing a letter as well...
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