Union vs Non Union My Response

[Vimes]

Tech2101 has already told you the truth.
Without the strike this individual would not have been qualified to get hired as an AMT at NW, or AA, DL, WN or UA before the strike.

The fact is the, "people", who replaced the striking AMT at NW are LESS qualified and have LESS experience and have LESS honor.

They helped bring down pay and bennies for ALL.

Brokenwrench,

You are incorrect. What brings down pay and bennies for all is every time you shop at Walmart, every time someone buys a foreign made car/truck every time a union blackmailed a company into perks the company could not afford and the American population watched. The stagnation of the labor movement did it, the labor movements ignorance of the remaining American population and their perceptions did it. The membership of the unions allowing their own union bosses to profit at the memberships expense did it. There are many factors but the replacements in the doomed AMFA strike were nor are the problem. In short, insulated hypocrisy did it

 

[Delta Technician]

You are lesser.

You were unable to qualify for, or land a job at a major until NWA had to dredge the muck to find bottom feeders to replace us.

Let me guess again, you learned how to change tires and brakes out in the desert on mothballed aircraft.

Look ma, I'm an airline mechanic now...how pathetic.

Translation should read my translation or my unions translation. In which language did you translate this? Don't make it one of your ridiculous union translations. You are obviously controlled by your union. Your post is full of enuendos. Give us the facts! Define " a major". Why aren't you something more than a ramp rat? Being an AMT with an A&P takes education-training...what does your position require? All the "majors" are looking for people like you who are willing to take positions like yours. What education or certificates does your position require?

This post was for Kevs post, Don't know how it ended up on techs post

 

[Vimes]

....not with Dickie leading the charge, it won't................ :down:

I still don't trust anyone who is associated with that POS Lorenzo. That is from my experience at PeoplExpress - my first airline job - then after the Texas Air takeover and the CAL takeover. It got so bad, I had the leave the airline business, get another job, and come back to CAL (after BK2) and start all over. A lot of people have the same feelings that I have, and don't trust this guy. I don't want our wages to slide downward to match another airline in a "race to the bottom". I am glad that I work for a company with a good CEO who can run an airline, and don't have baggage to bring. It took along time to come back from the depths of destruction from that POS and his "consignere". A lot of us will never forget or forgive........

I wish you all the best, but you will find out sure enough if a leopard changes his spots.

T5towbar,

We certainly agree in reference to Lorenzo; however history is history. America and the world have changed a lot since then. I honestly believe that the management at Delta sees some of the writing on the wall and I do think they are attempting to create a genuinely positive new type of relations with the non-management workforce. What they have begun is an excellent start where it goes will depend on the desire of the Delta employees to join in and effect changes in a POSITIVE direction FOR ALL WITHIN THE COMPANY.
Forgiving Lorenzo is irrelevant, forgetting can not ever happen.
There is enormous incentive for both current management and non-management employees, to strive for positive relations with non-management employees. The employees have to be intelligent and be fore thinking enough to realize that and use it. To shun new efforts without exploring them would be far more than narrow minded and fool hardy, it could potentially do much more damage to the entire American workforce that you have apparently considered.
There has been a race to the bottom, you are correct in that. We have to stop it. Why can we not show the world we, the American workers, are not against the companies we work for? Why cant we show the world we are capable of working with management in the best interest of ALL.
I would like to see Americans buy back our country and I would like to see American industry return to America, but the us against them, union mentality has driven industry away. We will not bring industry back by racing to the bottom of 3rd world pay scales. There is no benefit in that for anyone, not the employees, not the management, certainly not the company and absolutely not this country.

 

[Vimes]

Thanks for all the responses, but where is Vimes' response with his truth?
I believe the question was asked to him....

I think I answered that, sorry I have been at work, maybe that is not an issue for you.

 

[groundcontrol]

I think I answered that, sorry I have been at work, maybe that is not an issue for you.

I haven't worked since 2005, I'm waiting for the next picket line to form so I can cross it and get gainful employment. Worked for you didn't it?

 

[Don Smith]

None of the honorable mechanics on this forum are asking for YOUR forgiveness Vimes. When I walked out of the gate in DTW I knew then that it might very well be the last day of work at nwa. Thanks in part to SCAB nwa mechanics and SCABs like yourself I had to go to plan B and find another job. I never wanted to leave nwa. I enjoyed my job despite the DTW management and their good-old-boy favoritism. Now that they are all Delta managers they can bring their philosophy to Delta and without representation, the mechanics at Delta will see how much love there is between management and labor. You like to talk and have used all of the management "feel good" language. Given that Dick Anderson is in charge and given his history I would get ready for the other foot to drop. He left nwa and put Dougie Steenland in charge of the downfall and subsequent BK filing. Now Doug is out and Dick is back in and with him all of the union busting experience comes along with him. Divide and conquer, pit one against the other. Intimidation. Yes Delta is now the BIG airline in the world. And Vimes, you are on-your-way. Don't trip while your climbing on the backs of union mechanics that got you where you are today. For the record, very few of us wanted to see nwa go under. We still have pensions tied to nwa.

 

[Vimes]

I haven't worked since 2005, I'm waiting for the next picket line to form so I can cross it and get gainful employment. Worked for you didn't it?

Groundcontrol,

Sorry to hear that, I was gainfully employed prior to AMFA giant mistake of a strike, I never had trouble finding a job or holding a job and I never needed to pay "protection money" because I do and always did my job. As a matter of fact I was recently called by a major manufacturer as they are looking for a new rep. Have you ever been called by a major aircraft manufacturer and offered a position you havent ever applied for, because they know of your work? Guess not.

Have you ever heard the term 'cycle of abuse' well everything is a cycle, groundcontrol. Somethings are negative cycles it just takes courage and forethought to break the cycle. For example: every 4 years its an us against them mentality with a gotta get out piece of the pie all the while the mantra is greedy ceo's we gotta get ours we gotta show them we are gonna make them give us our due. It is the same record that has been playing since the 1800's and its a broken record now. Its past time we change the way things are working and try it from a prospective of a group or team if you will that really wants to do what is right for EVERYONE especially the airline.

 

[Vimes]

None of the honorable mechanics on this forum are asking for YOUR forgiveness Vimes. When I walked out of the gate in DTW I knew then that it might very well be the last day of work at nwa. Thanks in part to SCAB nwa mechanics and SCABs like yourself I had to go to plan B and find another job. I never wanted to leave nwa. I enjoyed my job despite the DTW management and their good-old-boy favoritism. Now that they are all Delta managers they can bring their philosophy to Delta and without representation, the mechanics at Delta will see how much love there is between management and labor. You like to talk and have used all of the management "feel good" language. Given that Dick Anderson is in charge and given his history I would get ready for the other foot to drop. He left nwa and put Dougie Steenland in charge of the downfall and subsequent BK filing. Now Doug is out and Dick is back in and with him all of the union busting experience comes along with him. Divide and conquer, pit one against the other. Intimidation. Yes Delta is now the BIG airline in the world. And Vimes, you are on-your-way SCAB. Don't trip while your climbing on the backs of union mechanics that got you where you are today. For the record, very few of us wanted to see nwa go under. We still have pensions tied to nwa.

There is no forgiveness offered to the AMT's/A&P's that left DTW in the condition they did. You should be forced to relinquish your license. You have no honor you lost every bit of it when you left DTW and its equipment in the condition you did. If you claim you did not do any of what was done then you did nothing to stop it either and are equally to blame. You lost all honor or right to claim honor when you stood outside the gates screaming about shutting NWA down and when your cohorts posted all over the internet about making NWA go the way of EASTERN.

4 years prior to this strike you were all told what was going to happen, that would be the contract you demanded more money in exchange for the mass layoff you know when you stabbed your union "brothers and sisters" in the back for your personal gain. "Divide and conquer" you said hahahaha that is EXACTLY what the unions have done in aviation.

"You like to talk and have used all of the management "feel good" language." no you unhonorable excuse for an aircraft mechanic, I have told the truth. Maybe the truth is hard for you to take but it is the truth and anyone who stops and looks at the whole of the picture will see it as well. I have seen the union side from the IAM at one facility to AMFA'S farce here in DTW to growing up in a UAW household to working non-union jobs I have looked at all sides of this issue and also the whole picture, but that prospective maybe too much for the likes of uneducated vandals, like you, to grasp. :angry:

 

[groundcontrol]

Groundcontrol,

Sorry to hear that, I was gainfully employed prior to AMFA giant mistake of a strike, I never had trouble finding a job or holding a job and I never needed to pay "protection money" because I do and always did my job. As a matter of fact I was recently called by a major manufacturer as they are looking for a new rep. Have you ever been called by a major aircraft manufacturer and offered a position you havent ever applied for, because they know of your work? Guess not.

Have you ever heard the term 'cycle of abuse' well everything is a cycle, groundcontrol. Somethings are negative cycles it just takes courage and forethought to break the cycle. For example: every 4 years its an us against them mentality with a gotta get out piece of the pie all the while the mantra is greedy ceo's we gotta get ours we gotta show them we are gonna make them give us our due. It is the same record that has been playing since the 1800's and its a broken record now. Its past time we change the way things are working and try it from a prospective of a group or team if you will that really wants to do what is right for EVERYONE especially the airline.

WOW! If only I could be as full of myself as you are, then maybe I could put an end to the "cycle of abuse".

 

[Don Smith]

For the record, I have been posting on this forum from August 2005 and have been completely honest in my postings and side conversations. I use my REAL NAME because I've nothing to hide. When I walked out of DTW there wasn't a broken piece of equipment in our zone. And the few times that I walked the picket line in DTW there wasn't anyone "screaming" to shut down the airline. Our 'voices" were focused on the SCABs, not the company. I joined the picket line in CMH since that is where I lived. Again I ask you for some examples of equipment sabotage? In my zone everything was working and there wasn't any mechanics doing any sabotage. So get your facts straight. You said you came to nwa after September? So ANY information you have is "hear-say". I was THERE and I'm setting it straight. I don't know where you SCABs get this sense of righteous indignation towards honorable mechanics but it doesn't wash with us. I looked at a lot of web sites and read a lot of blogs and posts about nwa. When I said we didn't want nwa to "go the way of Eastern (your words)" thats exactly what I meant. All of the mechanics I associated with had a vested interest in seeing nwa survive. Unlike you and some of the other SCABS who post here, who just blow into town for a few months or a year (Play the Odds) and then hit the road when the grass is perceived as being greener somewhere else or can't handle the pressure of a manager breathing down your neck at 5 in the morning or the weather gets a little too cold for changing tires, WE wanted to work in that pit called DTW. It wasn't my home but I met some great people (in mechanics uniforms) and was committed to doing my job there. Now that you have officially "baited" the forum with your innuendo, start coming up with something that isn't hear-say. I'll see your :angry: and raise you one :angry:.

There is no forgiveness offered to the AMT's/A&P's that left DTW in the condition they did. You should be forced to relinquish your license. You have no honor you lost every bit of it when you left DTW and its equipment in the condition you did. If you claim you did not do any of what was done then you did nothing to stop it either and are equally to blame. You lost all honor or right to claim honor when you stood outside the gates screaming about shutting NWA down and when your cohorts posted all over the internet about making NWA go the way of EASTERN...

 

[Vimes]

For the record, I have been posting on this forum from August 2005 and have been completely honest in my postings and side conversations. I use my REAL NAME because I've nothing to hide. When I walked out of DTW there wasn't a broken piece of equipment in our zone. And the few times that I walked the picket line in DTW there wasn't anyone "screaming" to shut down the airline. Our 'voices" were focused on the SCABs, not the company. I joined the picket line in CMH since that is where I lived. Again I ask you for some examples of equipment sabotage? In my zone everything was working and there wasn't any mechanics doing any sabotage. So get your facts straight. You said you came to nwa after September? So ANY information you have is "hear-say". I was THERE and I'm setting it straight. I don't know where you SCABs get this sense of righteous indignation towards honorable mechanics but it doesn't wash with us. I looked at a lot of web sites and read a lot of blogs and posts about nwa. When I said we didn't want nwa to "go the way of Eastern (your words)" thats exactly what I meant. All of the mechanics I associated with had a vested interest in seeing nwa survive. Unlike you and some of the other SCABS who post here, who just blow into town for a few months or a year (Play the Odds) and then hit the road when the grass is perceived as being greener somewhere else or can't handle the pressure of a manager breathing down your neck at 5 in the morning or the weather gets a little too cold for changing tires, WE wanted to work in that pit called DTW. It wasn't my home but I met some great people (in mechanics uniforms) and was committed to doing my job there. Now that you have officially "baited" the forum with your innuendo, start coming up with something that isn't hear-say. I'll see your :angry: and raise you one :angry:.

"Don Smith" I did not say I came to NWA after September. I stated I did not become a NWA employee until after September, prior to that I was a contractor a professional contractor. I was one of the first through the gate after your pathetic "strike" was called. I know exactly what condition things were left in and it was deplorable. Some feel, to NWA credit, they apparently chose not to seek retribution via law enforcement or the FAA or any other legal channels. I think they should have done everything in their power to throw the book at everyone who behaved in such a childish juvenile tantrum throwing manner. Everyone who was there knows what happened if you dont you were not there. Rehashing the ugly specifics publicaly, for those who were privileged to not witness it first hand, would not do NWA/DELTA any good at this point. In my opinion, and I am entitled to it, there is no way to refer to yourself or yourselves as a group as professional or honorable when behavior like that is not only tolerated but condoned. You can not say the strikers that showed up at DTW did not scream about sending NWA the way of Eastern it would simply be a blatant lie, nor can you say it was not posted on the internet including some stupid inane website created just for the purpose of exposing replacement workers and deriding NWA. Just to let you know, we, the replacement workers, were NEVER hiding, that includes the line crossers that includes the couple of people which were physically beaten by AMFA drones. So adult and so professional of your organizations membership, what an example you set for your children.

This entire thread began because I honestly believe that upper management and employees at all levels can work together and make the airline and every employee happier as well as feel more compensated as well as give front line employees a larger voice in the actual management of the airline.
You do not agree apparently....Fine you are entitled to your opinion.

I have never stated or intimated that it would be some sort of nirvana rather it would take WORK and CREATIVE THINKING from angles never used before.
You do not agree......Fine you are entitled to your opinion.

Recent history has proven unions do not work for anyone but union bosses and politicians and usually the company itself in general they manage to bring down employment, facilitate outsourcing, rob paychecks via protection money and protect only the lazy and talentless and create a negative adversarial environment where non-upper management employees feel voiceless.
You do not agree......Fine you are entitled to your opinion.

I know a media consultant/strategist who actually came up with a way employees could expound on the open communication Delta offers to create and re-educate businesses/airline management and shareholders (both employees and investors) to a whole new way of labor relations. A way that would actually show progress for EVERYONE including the airline. Though, like all 'campaigns' it could be used by either party to its own benefit.

American business management has an ingrained view of unions and of labor relations. One which unions and their members have taught management over the years, its the us against them mentality. To put it in more guttural terms, unions have fostered a 'cage match' type environment pitting themselves AGAINST the company that employs them and the management of the company. Upper management is now viewed by investors and the general public as defending the company while union membership is now viewed by investors and the general public as attempting to suck any and every company dry. You may not like it but that is the ugly truth.

It is time for change because if we do not change all work in America will be either be performed by H1 visa holders or outsourced all together in the very near future. We are not stupid 'sheeple (sheep/people) we (the American worker) in my opinion and not just my opinion is still the best in the world and we need to establish a more positive productive method of labor relations now before its too late and its damn near too late.

I think Delta employees have the biggest opportunity in recent history to be able to help accomplish that for all American workers, in part due to sheer size in part due to the openness of the "Delta Culture" in part due to the current economic climate as well as the political climate. To establish a new way of working with a company or airlines management to effect the changes that would make the company/airline better and make employees happier and feel better compensated and be more involved in the actual management of the airline and/or company.
You do not agree......Fine you are entitled to your opinion. (After all look at the state of the American worker, things are going so well right now arent they)

I remember a time, and I am not that old, when the American worker was the most coveted worker, the most sought after, the most respected and the most educated. Businesses all over the world sought American workers. If you are honest with yourself you have to admit that big business now views the American worker as greedy and utterly uncaring about the company they work for, further we are viewed as too ignorant to understand the economics of big business.
I do not think this is true on the whole, sadly for some individuals it is unenlightened fact. You may not feel that way, you may have cared very much about NWA but you too have been ingrained with the 'cage match' 'us against them' mentality because you have not been open to or have not been presented with something different. I do not know you personally although I am asking around about you. I work with plenty of returnees some of the real old timers, someone should know of you, but since I do not know you I can not say if it is simply that you have never been presented with something different or if you just like an adversarial environment.

I do know America can not exist as a consumer nation only, we have to bring work back to America back to Americans. To do that we have to change the way labor relations work in this country or the down hill slide will not abate instead it will accelerate.

Food For Thought:
Do you know how many VCR's have been sold in the USA? Approx 13-15 MILLION.
Do you know how many of those VCR's were made in America?
ZERO, NONE, ZILCH, ZIP, NADDA

Why did Toyota not build their US plant in Michigan where 'experienced' auto workers were readily available? They will not say this publically but the truth is..........THE UAW

Do you have an Ipod? Read the back of it. It says "Designed in California Assembled in China.

How is a contract that gives more money to employees hourly while at the same time allowing MORE outsourcing and the layoffs of hundreds of fellow union members the right choice? Is that a union contract leading an industry in the right direction? It was the wrong choice, it was a selfish choice it was a greedy choice, but it was an industry leading contract for sure. It lead AMFA right out the door and damaged the entire profession; as well as all airline workers.

By the way, I like what someone on one of these boards said about SCABS once......Scabs heal wounds caused by bacteria like AMFA.
I do not consider myself a SCAB, rather I consider myself a SCAR. AMFA is gone the wound is healed now we have to heal the disease that caused the wound....negative, divisive unions and their greedy union bosses and the politicians that feed off them.

You see 'Don Smith' pilots can not fly any plane anywhere unless there are flight attendants to ensure the passengers safety in the event 'God forbid' of an issue in flight, or unless there are rampers to handle the logistics of proper safe loading of baggage or unless there are mechanics to ensure the mechanical safety of the aircraft or unless there are gate agents to organize and inform passengers and unless there is upper management dealing with business issues. Flight Attendants can not work to ensure the safety of passengers if there is no pilot to fly the plane or no mechanic to fix the plane or no rampers to load the plane or no gate agents to organize and inform passengers prior to boarding or no upper management dealing with the business issues. Mechanics can not fix the planes if there are no pilots to fly the planes or no flight attendants to ensure the passengers safety on the aircraft or no rampers to load the planes or not gate agents to get the passengers boarded or no upper management dealing with the business issues.
THAT IS WHY ITS CALLED A TEAM, WE ALL HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER FROM THE TOP OF THE TOTEM POLE ALL THE WAY TO THE BOTTOM OF THE TOTEM POLE!

 

[Vimes]

WOW! If only I could be as full of myself as you are, then maybe I could put an end to the "cycle of abuse".

Groundcontrol,

I simply stated facts. I am not full of myself, I am truthful. You added nothing to the conversation that bore any merit you simply reverted to an insipid, grade school, catty, valueless comment.

Yes, I equated the recent history of union negotiations as a "cycle of abuse" because that is how I and many others view it. It has been a cycle of abuse of the American worker for the express benefit of union bosses and politicians, certainly NOT for the American worker.

 

[Dignity]

protect only the lazy and talentless and create a negative adversarial environment where non-upper management employees feel voiceless.

could you define lazy?

lazy to me is someone who just does not do their job (every aspect of that job..and knowingly does not do it.. as opposed to someone who may not be able to perform their job and it is necessary to be on a medical leave due to an illness/injury or undisclosed medical issue..)

I believe a union cannot protect someone's job if that individual does not follow policies and procedures, is continually late for work, does not perform the job as outlined or expected.. or steals/lies..ext..

what will happen though is due process in order to make sure any level of discipline is handled fairly or it is justified with representation (of course should someone choose that)

that is probably where the union comes in regarding that kind of issue.. because... someone may be accused of things that just did not happen or someone may have actually done something but in order to proceed with steps of discipline should have a fair hearing..

the idea to me, is fairness.

to insinuate (if..that is the case) a "union member" or being in a union enables someone to be immune of any type of discipline, and protected, is just not factual or realistic.

its just a personal opinion!


talentless? (even though I get what you are trying to say...)

well!

try working an aircraft where all the inflight amenities were stripped to the bone (even the pretzels in coach!) and at the end of the flight you hear passengers say (based on their flight experience and the Flight Attendants in all cabins), "thank you for the nice flight"... as they walk out the boarding door...


talent, oh yes they have that..(and were/are very fortunate they did/do!)


they feel voiceless?

well now-a-days they do say hello when passing in the hall as opposed to some of them either looking the other way or grunting.

they made us feel like we didnt matter..

however today..

I notice some improvement in that regard and hope it is genuine.

 

[777 fixer]

Oh and how is that union thing working out for thousands of auto workers? Looks like they blackmailed the entire industry into bankruptcy to me.

Here's a fact for you. The UAW is not responislbe for the cars the big three bring to market. If they have cars that no one wants to buy who do you think is responsible?

 

[DAL Mech]

Here's a fact for you. The UAW is not responislbe for the cars the big three bring to market. If they have cars that no one wants to buy who do you think is responsible?

There are plenty of American made cars I would like, they are just too expensive for what you get. Tell me the UAW isnt a part of that problem