So in essense you feel that a 53 percent reduction in workforce and a 23 percent cut in pay for those few that remained was not a good enough reason to go out on strike? I had 17 yrs with the company in 2005 and I would have been eliminated. NW would not have spent over a million dollars and a yr and a half recruiting replacements if they had any intention of bargining with AMFA. They put their demands out there knowing full well it would never pass and would force a strike do the math it takes 50 percent +1 to ratify the contract and they were kicking 53 percent to the curb. I am not denying that AMFA made some huge mistakes but in the end AMFA agreed to all NWA demands and NWA said NO. The mistake was in actually calling a strike when what should have happened is that everyone still reported to work and it would have forced NW to lock us out as they were paying the replacements also. This way unemployment would have been paid to all and might have kept a few of the weaker ones from crossing. But make no mistake. I am no real fan of unions but I enjoy a wage today at FedEx ( a non union company) far superior to what you do and it was thanks to the hard work AMFA negotiators did in our 2001 contract pre 9/11 that brought the entire industry a much higher wage and retirement. Now thanks to losers like yourself who could not get a job at a major unless he crossed an active picket line and took someone elses job, a good chunk of the industry has been brought right back down again in wages save FedEx, UPS and SWA. I hope you are proud of yourself. I guess that is your idea of "manning up" right?
Union vs Non Union My Response
- Thread starter Vimes
- Start date
So in essense you feel that a 53 percent reduction in workforce and a 23 percent cut in pay for those few that remained was not a good enough reason to go out on strike? I had 17 yrs with the company in 2005 and I would have been eliminated. NW would not have spent over a million dollars and a yr and a half recruiting replacements if they had any intention of bargining with AMFA. They put their demands out there knowing full well it would never pass and would force a strike do the math it takes 50 percent +1 to ratify the contract and they were kicking 53 percent to the curb. I am not denying that AMFA made some huge mistakes but in the end AMFA agreed to all NWA demands and NWA said NO. The mistake was in actually calling a strike when what should have happened is that everyone still reported to work and it would have forced NW to lock us out as they were paying the replacements also. This way unemployment would have been paid to all and might have kept a few of the weaker ones from crossing. But make no mistake. I am no real fan of unions but I enjoy a wage today at FedEx ( a non union company) far superior to what you do and it was thanks to the hard work AMFA negotiators did in our 2001 contract pre 9/11 that brought the entire industry a much higher wage and retirement. Now thanks to losers like yourself who could not get a job at a major unless he crossed an active picket line and took someone elses job, a good chunk of the industry has been brought right back down again in wages save FedEx, UPS and SWA. I hope you are proud of yourself. I guess that is your idea of "manning up" right?
Well said Lineguy43.
At my station, all of us have gone on to do well outside of NWA. Many went to CAL. They were pleased to get the experience. I chose a different path. I resumed my college career in early 2005 and have surpassed all salary expectations of any A&P/Avionics Tech.
People like this guy vimes (PTO, etc...), who are now going to save the airline are laughable at best. Here is someone who could not land an A&P job until the airline was dragging bottom for applicants. Now, he knows all, and is going to solve all that ails the industry. Give me a break. He was an economic necessity. They will kick him to the curb when needed. He has proven that he will turn and put the gun on his co-worker when necessary to cover his own hide.
Yep, man-up big guy, until the boss slaps you and tells you that you are his boy.
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #93
I have NEVER said the failure of the auto industry was the exclusive fault of the UAW and/or its members, NEVER. As for the "get a grip" comment well yeah, I mean COME ON
THE JOB BANK in and of itself was arrogance, and utter greeeeeed proving the UAW was totally out of touch with working America among many other things. UAW retiree medical bennies are not over either by the way.I have never said I have all the answers nor have I ever said I know everything. I will be the first person to tell you I am no better than anyone else nor any smarter. My unique background gives me a different perspective though. I grew up in a UAW household, I have a parent who is a UAW GM retiree, I chose to cross a picket line, I am adamantly against unions in the current form and I am part of an industry that has been on the down hill slide for years now and quite frankly I want better for airline employees and aircraft mechanics as a whole. Just because I express my opinion does not in any way intimate that I know everything, as dignity once stated that is what these boards are about sharing opinions and openly discussing them.
777fixer do you know what AMT used to mean? I used to and for most who have been in this industry very long means Aircraft Mechanical Trainee aka Technician. In the rest of the world Aircraft Mechanics are designated and educated as Aircraft Mechanical Engineers. Why do you think the designation has gone from A&P to AMT instead of from A&P to Aircraft Mechanical Engineer? Money that is why. Its a designation between skilled and unskilled labor. Yet many will proudly call themselves AMT's because it is something that has been sold to aircraft mechanics over the past few years.
The sad facts today are if you think you have an opinion you better make sure its really your opinion and its based in fact because make no mistake MILLIONS of dollars are spent by organizations and groups out to shape your opinion and make you think its your very own.
777fixer, you asked about a hypothetical day. Well, that day may come but I do not think it is the employee cost which are currently the issue, just my opinion. Many of the outrageous work rules that were in existence are not longer in existence they were union designed work rules that were simple waste of enormous amounts of money. I think the financial issues are in other areas at the moment. Having said that, should that hypothetical day come I will be leaving the industry or that company. There are a lot of variables there because if I had to take a pay cut to keep others working even other work groups and upper management took the same percentage of a cut, hey share the burden but if you are talking about a hypothetical spiteful move there again are numerous variables. Such as if this is a spiteful move is it because I belong to group that has forced outlandishly expensive asinine work rules that are bleeding the company and the moral or am I just working for jerks. Each leads to different choices. So I am sorry but there is no real answer to your hypothetical question because the variables are not spelled out. Career choices are unpleasant sometimes but as adults we have to make them, which means sometimes you do not work for the same company from graduation to retirement. Those are the days that are gone.
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #94
Lineguy43,
You know as well as I do that the 05 negotiations were most probably retribution for the 01 blackmail and the horrendous work rules instituted and milked to death by the membership post 01 contract. I could not blame any company for wanting to get rid of that kind of situation. From a business prospective they would not have been doing their fiduciary duty to their shareholders had they not tried to stop the union contracted instituted bleeding.
Now, about that 01 "industry leading contract" WHAT A SHAM! AMFA allowed the farming out of work which resulted in the layoffs of many fellow members in exchange for the "ground breaking pay".......quite the example of an injury to one is an injury to all, dont you think.
AMFA did not just make mistakes, they screwed every single member, they degraded and their membership degraded fellow employees, the vilified any version of a team approach instead creating and fostering a we are so much better than everyone else attitude. I know the names they used to call other work groups in order to perpetuate their false air of superiority, I remember the b.s. line that was something like "we stand on our skills alone we dont need anyone else" (in reference to a specific other work group) WHAT A LOAD OF ARROGANT SELF CENTERED SHE-Y-TEE!
Now for your references:
FedEx- They are non union and work damn hard to stay that way. They pay better because they charge an arm and a leg for anything and everything. They have learned something Delta has not yet learned. Luxury is largely perception and if the customer perceives luxury they will pay a bit more for it, especially in these times and especially for things like flights. There is a lot of profit in perceived luxury combined with customer service.
SWA- Nothing but a cattle hauler, walmartair and shame on them. They are part and parcel of the problem. They have effectively sold the American public on the idea of renting a seat on a plane rather than treating oneself or rather than elevating the experience or rather than seeking quality in their travel. They actually had a media campaign designed to shift the publics view of air travel and its been very successful. Lets hope Delta changes that.
UPS- Well like FedEx, which you earlier mentioned farms out quite a bit of work to repair stations. To Delta's credit they want to function in part as a repair facility for other airlines and if done correctly could drive some of the MAE's out (oh sorry I think they work on both FED EX and UPS) either way the pay you speak so highly of what about forgoing a raise to bring in more mechs and have ZERO farm out? Ummm build the business and the industry itself. How about do something to end the farming out and increase the full time employees and while your at that consider the trickle down effects of that within the economy as well as the industry.
You bring up some good points especially about farmouts. Unfortunately heavy maintenance is all but finished at the airlines as most all of it is farmed out now. So since the unions have not been successful in stopping farmouts and certainly non-union mechanics have not been able to stop it all we have is the line and some hanger in the form of smaller checks i.e B checks. Zero farmouts is a nice dream but unless you are willing to sell out for wages that compete with Aeroman in El Salvador it is still unlikely you are going to stop it. American Airlines is about as close to doing most all of it's work in house and while they may employ more mechanics I don't think they are a real happy bunch over there. Personally I would rather hit the street than partake in the race to the bottom in wages and benefits. You walked across our line and NWA has the least amount of mechanics per a/c than any other airline bar none. AA has the most a 22 mechaincs per a/c and NWA has the lowest at.08 mechanics per a/c...Doesn't sound like you saved the world from farmouts by your actions now does it? I lost a lot of vacation I had with NWA and just missed having retirement flight benefits. But I make more in salary than I ever did including at the height of the AMFA contract at FedEx I can fly jumpseat not as glamorous as my first class travel at NWA but nonetheless it is a free ride but most importantly I didn't have to move and I feel more stable even in this environment than I ever did at NW so I guess all in all AMFA and NW did me a favor in the long run. Bottom line is whether you agree with AMFA or unions in general or not you and all the other scabs undermined any chance of getting gains for the mechaincs in the industry by helping NW bust the union. It is now back to being a race to the bottom again while everything else in life in the way of expenditures is going up. Good luck in your effort to save the companies from farming out...Maybe when the mechanic wages are down to 5 bucks an hour you will get your wish. Unfortunately you and others like you are rapidly making that happen.
As a senior mechanic at a major non-unionized Express airline I have two choices with regard to my continued employment with this company. (1) I can work for the pay and benefits that they offer me (2) I can quit. If the seeming minority of pro-union mechanics at this Express airline are able to vote in a union my employment choices are still two but one of them is vastly different (1) I can quit or (2) I can work for what 50% +1 of my unions "brothers" will agree is fair. The company may make the work group an offer that I think is very fair and generous but if 50% +1 of my fellow mechanics do not agree I would not be able to accept the offer. If 50% +1 of my fellow mechanics decide to put their continued employment on the line for what they consider to be fair pay and benefits I would again be faced with two choices.(1) Walk out and jeopardize my future employment and my famly's financial future (2) Continue to work for what I consider to be fair wages and benefits. I have always made my own choices because I am the one who reaps the benefits and suffers the consequences of these choices and will continue to do so in the future.
I have NEVER said the failure of the auto industry was the exclusive fault of the UAW and/or its members, NEVER. As for the "get a grip" comment well yeah, I mean COME ON
I have never said I have all the answers nor have I ever said I know everything. I will be the first person to tell you I am no better than anyone else nor any smarter. My unique background gives me a different perspective though. I grew up in a UAW household, I have a parent who is a UAW GM retiree, I chose to cross a picket line, I am adamantly against unions in the current form and I am part of an industry that has been on the down hill slide for years now and quite frankly I want better for airline employees and aircraft mechanics as a whole. Just because I express my opinion does not in any way intimate that I know everything, as dignity once stated that is what these boards are about sharing opinions and openly discussing them.
777fixer do you know what AMT used to mean? I used to and for most who have been in this industry very long means Aircraft Mechanical Trainee aka Technician. In the rest of the world Aircraft Mechanics are designated and educated as Aircraft Mechanical Engineers. Why do you think the designation has gone from A&P to AMT instead of from A&P to Aircraft Mechanical Engineer? Money that is why. Its a designation between skilled and unskilled labor. Yet many will proudly call themselves AMT's because it is something that has been sold to aircraft mechanics over the past few years.
The sad facts today are if you think you have an opinion you better make sure its really your opinion and its based in fact because make no mistake MILLIONS of dollars are spent by organizations and groups out to shape your opinion and make you think its your very own.
777fixer, you asked about a hypothetical day. Well, that day may come but I do not think it is the employee cost which are currently the issue, just my opinion. Many of the outrageous work rules that were in existence are not longer in existence they were union designed work rules that were simple waste of enormous amounts of money. I think the financial issues are in other areas at the moment. Having said that, should that hypothetical day come I will be leaving the industry or that company. There are a lot of variables there because if I had to take a pay cut to keep others working even other work groups and upper management took the same percentage of a cut, hey share the burden but if you are talking about a hypothetical spiteful move there again are numerous variables. Such as if this is a spiteful move is it because I belong to group that has forced outlandishly expensive asinine work rules that are bleeding the company and the moral or am I just working for jerks. Each leads to different choices. So I am sorry but there is no real answer to your hypothetical question because the variables are not spelled out. Career choices are unpleasant sometimes but as adults we have to make them, which means sometimes you do not work for the same company from graduation to retirement. Those are the days that are gone.
You want to talk about AMT's? AMFA had the right idea on this. Unions like the iam have actually hindered the mechanic by helping keep and not fighting to change the Dep of Labor classification of the aircraft mechanic from semi-skilled to skilled. Also the FAA is to blame too. In Europe the A@P is not even recognized they have a far more rigorious standard of licencing and training and are type rated to a limit of 2 a/c max. Can you imagine if they had the regulation here of 2 a/c max per mechanic, the lobbying group ATA and the airlines would have a fit. AMFA had the right idea unfortunately mechanics are thier own worst enemy. We do nothing to try to help help polish our image. Oh well I am sure Vimes you will figure it all out.
At least you have a job.
Yep that about sum it up nicely... Except lets take the last two choices you mention and apply them to the AMFA strike. "You could 1 walk out and jeoperdize your families future or continue to work for what you consider to be fair wages and benefits". Well lets suppose that your seniority fell in the 53 percent of mechanics to be eliminated and the more senior guys who stayed were going to take a 23 percent hit on the pay...Ok lets suppose you think this is a fair offer but the membership voted to take it to the street even though if it was voted in you would be out of a job are you telling me you would continue to work and not support the vote and go on strike? Seems pretty damn selfish doesn't it? After all I could have done that as I was in the 53 percent to be out of a job. Wouldn't you think that was pretty selfish of me to cross my picket line because I am my own man right even though I was technically out of a job and there were guys senior to me who are out on the picket line who would NOT have been out of a job but are out there fighting to help me keep me and the other 53 percent from going to the curb? Yet there were guys who did just that. I don't care what you think about unions that is just plain wrong and the people who do it are the lowest of the low. I don't want to hear the excuses either. I have a mortage, I have a family too. I worked two jobs to pay the bills because we could not collect unemployment. I did what I had to do until I was fortunate enough to be hired by a great company. I feel I was blessed because I did the right thing and did not take the easy route. I can hold my head high because not only was I honorable but I help many of my fellow honorable co-workers get hired here as well. But again every man makes his own choices in life. Some have grown to regret it BIG TIME.
groundcontrol
Veteran
- Oct 17, 2005
- 716
- 0
Funny you mention PTO...Vimes is more the Czar Greene type. You know the type, pompous. :down:Well said Lineguy43.
At my station, all of us have gone on to do well outside of NWA. Many went to CAL. They were pleased to get the experience. I chose a different path. I resumed my college career in early 2005 and have surpassed all salary expectations of any A&P/Avionics Tech.
People like this guy vimes (PTO, etc...), who are now going to save the airline are laughable at best. Here is someone who could not land an A&P job until the airline was dragging bottom for applicants. Now, he knows all, and is going to solve all that ails the industry. Give me a break. He was an economic necessity. They will kick him to the curb when needed. He has proven that he will turn and put the gun on his co-worker when necessary to cover his own hide.
Yep, man-up big guy, until the boss slaps you and tells you that you are his boy.
U
UAL_TECH
Guest
Sad thing is people read your drivel and believe it.
This 'discussion' has been put to MeriKa workers 'numerous' times.
Unfortunately, most agree with you even though the they imperil their own country and families.
It is people like ‘you’ that subjugate America through the ‘fractional-truisms’ to make it appear factual.
Here is a little ‘factual truism’ that everyone here should pay attention to:
Fact:
Globalization of labor is here!
Affect:
Lower wages and benefits for American workers, some small gains for immigrant workers trying to equalize, huge profits for CEO’s and executives (but of course you being a stalwart in the industry that CEO and executive compensation has skyrocketed more than ten fold that of the labor force? Yes of course you do…)
Your part has only xxxxxx exasperated the inevitable.
B) xUT
PS:
You Suck!
U
UAL_TECH
Guest
Kev3188
Veteran
People like Opus, er, Vimes will always try to justify their existence/motives. It's the same song and dance over and over. Unfortunately, it's usually in the form of really long bandwidth-wasting posts that talk a lot, but don't say a thing.
Selfish? What about the impact of your decision to attempt to harm the company you work for on all of the other employees of that company? 20/20 hindsight says that this noble cause of these seniors was a kamikaze mission. You can tell me how "honorable" the pilots are when their strike costs you so they can get an extra $20 hour and 3 more days a month off. How much of an "honorable" sacrifice are you willing to make for those guys? Do you think their union will honor your picket line? There's that 20/20 hindsight again.
