Union vs Non Union My Response

[2BlacknBlue]

This is nothing but a myth. Unions may not use member dues to support any political figure, it is illegal. Members may donate money to the union via the PAC fund and that money is used to support politicians who will further the cause of the membership.

Hopefully this myth has been busted!

...and Delta uses lobbyists to support their case!


http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum...irlines&id=

 

[Vimes]

I have to echo- Pathetic! Unions are the reason there is any protections at all for labor. Just to bring out a few points you gloss over: MANY more businesses have been destroyed by bad management than by bad unions. Every upper management type is in a union, their OWN union of one. They each have an individual contract, they would not come to work without it. If they don't like something they CAN quit because their contract gives them a nice golden parachute. Why do you rant against uaw contract provisions and not management ones like an instant 25 years of service, protected pensions, private jets, pay hundreds of times yours in spite of how much they screw up? Why can't you realize that managements today are a bunch of mercenaries, here for the short term to take as much as they can from the corporate coffers before moving on like a horde of locusts to the next company? You are here for the long term and a union can help protect you from these vandals who will use employees to enrich themselves at every opportunity. They care nothing for 'happy' employees because they will be gone in a year or two and could care less what wreckage they leave behind. Witness Leo Mullen!

Are unions perfect? Hardly. But they are the only way employees have of standing up for themselves against the greed and avarice that permeates modern management in America. That is why they came about in the first place all those years ago. All the protections unions won like vacation time, pensions, decent pay, etc., they are very quickly being eroded. Is it a coincidence that unionism is at an all time low? Yet management keeps inventing new benefits for themselves and taking ever more from the corporate piggy bank. Where does that come from? From the employees! Why? Because they say so, that's why and without a union you can do nothing but take it or 'quit' and hope to start at the bottom somewhere else. How about a different approach? Instead of quitting, get together and stand up to these parasites who have been here a year or two to the average employee's 15-20 years and demand to be included when the goodies are handed out. You deserve a voice as it is your blood, sweat and tears that built these companies, not theirs. And that means a union friend. You have earned a place at the table but without banding together you will be ignored and trampled upon with impunity. Isn't it ironic that the same management types that tell you you have no need of a contract would not think about coming to work without one. Why is that?? In the end, if it is good enough for RA then it should be good enough for you as well.

Just my humble opinion.

Guinness767,

I appreciate you "humble opinion" and agree with some of what you say, although not all. What unions started out as and what they have been allowed to become even encouraged to become by their very own membership is why union membership is at an all time low. I do believe there should be more equity between the top pay and benefits and the bottom pay and benefits; however unions will not deliver this especially in today's economy. In the airline industry the employees have been divided by the unions who seek to look out for their members and their members only. This unfortunately now ingrained attitude divides the workforce and pits management against frontline employees giving management the excuse to pit themselves against the company and the frontline employees. There has to be a coming together where in everyone understands that the company or the airline must be the ultimate concern of everyone, and there must be an understanding that as the company or airline prospers so do all employees equally.

When you compare benefits and wages and education and job responsibility across American industry you find that we at NWA/DELTA are well paid and well stocked with benefits in comparison across the nation. Are airline employees the most highly compensated in America? No but nor are we the lowest or anywhere near the lowest.

You feel management sucks a company dry. Well in many cases you are correct. Do you honestly think unions in any form are going to stop that? Do you think unions in any form are going to stand up for the company and demand better fiscal behavior on behalf of the company or airline? If they do or did it was only a media ploy there was no sincerity behind it. It is so easy to forget without the company or airline there is no job there is no paycheck there are no benefits and there is no management to complain about.

There are ways to change the compensation structure of management; however not one single union I have ever known of has the thought process or ability to do it nor do they care to. Where would their paychecks go if the employees were actually working with management, actually working TOGETHER. That would end the need for their purported protection. Unions stand to gain nothing if management compensation were more equalized then were would their villain be? That is why they spend so much time talking about uniform allowances and other various benefits. Unions stand to gain ZERO if employees actually came together with management and made things work for everyone's benefit. Do not misunderstand me there are most definitely things that NWA/DELTA could do at little or no cost that would improve the moral and lifestyle of many of the employees, and there is much that can be done to increase the shareholders bottom lines which by they way most all of us are shareholders.

The selfish avarice coupled with down right disdain that has permeated negations over the recent years is neither imaginative nor helpful to anyone rather it has created an atmosphere of me me me me me GREED. Which translates to the attitudes of the frontline employees. I think this helped to created the management situation all of America is now faced with. I think there are ways to change that without jumping in the socialism boat or without paying an organization for imagined protection, when what you are really paying for is the egging on of the us against them mentality. I know several of the returning mechs have very large chips on their shoulders directed toward their own "union brothers & sisters" who voted to kick them out the door and out source their jobs for their own higher industry leading paychecks. Which I must say is an excellent example of modern unions at work.

I am someone that believes all this can change. The greed can be taken out of the picture and EVERYONE can benefit from real changes. Real changes are not going to happen unless real attempts are made to do so. Antagonistic negotiations and an us against them mentality is not going to do it though it will only serve to perpetuate the downward spiral of the American worker as a whole. We are living in interesting times my friend and these times require unique out of the box thinking. There is not one union out there offering anything other than the same old us against them....give me give me give me.

 

[Vimes]

Still a messed up point of view. Unions have done more for you at DL than you may wish to admit. Your work week, vacation, pay, are all at a standard due to the unions. Like it or not.

Bagboy,

It is true, historically unions have done some wonderful things; however they have also done some despicable things neither justifies the other. I am currently a NWA/DL employee by the end of the year I will be a full fledged DELTA employee.

 

[Vimes]

Opus, er Vimes--

So let me get this straight: You sat quiet through the whole maelstrom that took place on these boards during 05, and only now have chosen to post? Is that correct? Why didn't you say anything then?

Kev,

I was busy working 12 hours per day along with my fellow workers keeping thousands of people working and keeping an airline flying safely.

 

[Vimes]

I've only one quote for why there are unions, or collective bargaining.

"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will."
Frederick Douglass - 1857


Need I say more.........

T5towbar,

1857! Wow please move into this century. Its 2009 you may need to update your calendar and your thought process. Times have changed and not always for the better.

 

[Vimes]

This is nothing but a myth. Unions may not use member dues to support any political figure, it is illegal. Members may donate money to the union via the PAC fund and that money is used to support politicians who will further the cause of the membership.

Hopefully this myth has been busted!

Here is some ugly truth for you. At a political dinner this past election season I actually heard a union "boss" make the following statement to a democratic politician...

"You need me because I control the masses" Unions bosses and/or union management are courted as if they were kings and they live like they are kings as well. Apparently you have no idea how many ways money is funneled into politics. There is no altruism in unions and politics mixing its all about what can I get out of you, from both sides (the politician and the union) inevitably someone gets screwed in the end. Oh wait this year it would be the UAW and all of America as we are going to watch TaTa Motors or China's auto company soon to be sold in a Walmart near you.

 

[Vimes]

...and Delta uses lobbyists to support their case!


http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum...irlines&id=

2blacknblue,

Did you have a point? Of course Delta, along with EVERY SINGLE OTHER MAJOR CORPORATION has paid lobbyist. It would be irresponsible for them not to. That is how life happens in Washington, your money is the bread and lobbyist are the butter. Is there some reason Delta should not have lobbyist? Of course there isnt.

 

[Vimes]

I would like to comment regarding what I just read...


] what "fighting for" really boils down to is simply caring..

No in today's union environment it boils down to greed


you need to read what you wrote, and then again, and then think about what you wrote..(really think about that comment) especially regarding pay and benefits...(equal pay in the workplace)

You are correct I worded that very poorly. Equal pay should not be based on gender, religion, skin color, heritage, or any other host of things; however that does not mean pay is equal across the board, In my opinion. The union mentality rewards nothing in the way of skill and/or job performance, rather it chooses to reward seniority as if it were magic, seniority is not magic there are PLENTY who have contributed nothing but have hidden out successfully for years under the guise of union protection.


happy people treat others in a caring manner most of the times in all situations, human beings treat others like they should be treated regardless of employment status or place of employment and I hope you understand what that means.

Well, in a perfect world; however many employees treat customers and/or their fellow employees is a rather unpleasant manner when they are unhappy with their jobs. That is a simple truth. It is also a simple truth that that is part of the reason why companies go to extremes to make their employees happy with their employment situations or why companies do things to alleviate stresses for their employees. Although attitude is a choice unfortunately not everyone see it that way.

not relevant?

As in, not part of yours nor my job description. If you or anyone is so upset with whom ever is running a company take it to the shareholders and do something about it but it is not part of the job. If your job is to fly a plane it matters not who is making corporate decisions only that your plane is safe and clean and ready to fly. If you are a mech and you fix planes then its your job to make sure that airplane is safe for the flight crew and the passengers. If you are a flight attendant its your job to see to the safety of your fellow crew members and your passengers. No these are not complete job descriptions by any means but its the gist of it.

that suggest the idea of teamwork from the top to the front line, working together as a team doesnt matter.

Absolutely not what I intended to convey and I think that was pretty clear! I look forward to Delta's team approach and hopefully it can be expanded upon. If we all functioned as a team then there would be so much less discord, but the current union mentality does nothing to encourage a team approach rather is attempts to snuff it out. There do seem to be an awful lot of armchair CEO's who have not put the time or money into the education or experience required to reach upper management, yet their hobby seems to be defecating on our management yet doing nothing about it but attempting to satisfy some personal financial desires to one up another work group

anyone who works at a company is considered an employee, that includes 'upper management'

That is true or should be true, although genuine lines of distinction have been drawn by the unions


but then you went ahead and gave a suggestion. what I think you might be very surprised to realize is how many people, Flight Attendants, truly do view the big picture especially future success for all...(and keep that close and a priority)

yes I did. Most of the flight attendants I know or have met have been extremely nice even during the strike, not all. It goes right back to that team approach.

just because one person views a situation (or personal opinion) in one manner does not necessarily equate "utter unforgivable gall".


No I stand by that statement. As an FAA licensed AP I am entrusted with the safety of flight crews and passengers NOTHING AND NO ONE should EVER compromise that and personally I take a very very dim view of anyone in aviation who does not put the safety of the flight crew and the passengers first, they would have no business in aviation. Fortunately the people I work with at NWA/DELTA do put our flight crews and our passengers safety FIRST AND FOREMOST AT ALL TIMES

 

[Dignity]

No in today's union environment it boils down to greed

That is a blanket generalization that absolutely is a personal opinion.

You are correct I worded that very poorly.

yes it was, and I am happy to read you have acknowledged that.. without having to further bring that to your attention. (but overall I get what you were trying to imply)

Well, in a perfect world; however many employees treat customers and/or their fellow employees is a rather unpleasant manner when they are unhappy with their jobs. That is a simple truth. It is also a simple truth that that is part of the reason why companies go to extremes to make their employees happy with their employment situations or why companies do things to alleviate stresses for their employees. Although attitude is a choice unfortunately not everyone see it that way.

you know even during the most difficult times in our career, my workplace (based on personal experience) was always supportive and pleasant, a neutral zone so to speak. because fortunately working with a group of professional men and women over so many years, it is business as usual focusing on getting the job done, treating people as human beings not always just a customer.

I *never* witnessed any crewmember take out frustrations on passengers.. as that is 'left off the aircraft and never enters the boarding door' (you are just going to have to take my word on it)

As in, not part of yours nor my job description. If you or anyone is so upset with whom ever is running a company take it to the shareholders and do something about it but it is not part of the job.

first of all I am not upset with anyone.. (you will just have to take my word on that too)
people voice their opinions based on what they feel is being done right, or something that may be needing improvement. I think its a good idea to keep emotional responses in check..(which is probably the case for the majority as well) while generally keeping the ability to recognize, there may be an issue needing to be addressed...(that may go beyond a job description)

in an environment of being a teamplayer and embracing other ideas (with open communication and dialog) that should be widely accepted as the norm.

If your job is to fly a plane it matters not who is making corporate decisions only that your plane is safe and clean and ready to fly. If you are a mech and you fix planes then its your job to make sure that airplane is safe for the flight crew and the passengers. If you are a flight attendant its your job to see to the safety of your fellow crew members and your passengers. No these are not complete job descriptions by any means but its the gist of it.

you left out being a teamplayer, which everyone should try to be..

Absolutely not what I intended to convey and I think that was pretty clear! I look forward to Delta's team approach and hopefully it can be expanded upon. If we all functioned as a team then there would be so much less discord, but the current union mentality does nothing to encourage a team approach rather is attempts to snuff it out. There do seem to be an awful lot of armchair CEO's who have not put the time or money into the education or experience required to reach upper management, yet their hobby seems to be defecating on our management yet doing nothing about it but attempting to satisfy some personal financial desires to one up another work group

in a forum, generally views, opinions and ideas are discussed, that does not necessarily mean someone is an "armchair CEO".. or trying to be...

its a forum.

That is true or should be true, although genuine lines of distinction have been drawn by the unions

can you give an example?

yes I did. Most of the flight attendants I know or have met have been extremely nice even during the strike, not all. It goes right back to that team approach.

actually it goes right back to treating people like human beings, but I get what you are saying.

No I stand by that statement. As an FAA licensed AP I am entrusted with the safety of flight crews and passengers NOTHING AND NO ONE should EVER compromise that and personally I take a very very dim view of anyone in aviation who does not put the safety of the flight crew and the passengers first, they would have no business in aviation. Fortunately the people I work with at NWA/DELTA do put our flight crews and our passengers safety FIRST AND FOREMOST AT ALL TIMES

Thank you for keeping us safe in the skies.

 

[DalMD88]

Havn't been on this board for a while. It was getting sleepy. I see things have changed. I'm just going to add my two cents.

I would like a union. Currently as a DL AMT I have an at will contract with DL. That means they set the terms and can change them whenever without out any imput from me or my agent. Within the labor laws they can change my work hours, my work location, my pay, my healthcare, and my retirement. I'm sure there are more, that's all I can think of right now. I know they can do these things, they have done all of these things to me in the last 10 years.

I had three choices. Accept it, strike, or quit. Yes, I could have gone on strike. It would have been fired most likely and been the only one outside the hangar with a sign so that was a non option. I really couldn't quit either. Tough to explain that one when you get home. "Today they took away my pension. I showed them, I quit." That left me with the accept option. I'm 100% sure if I had taken the quit option and gone to work selling cell phones or sprinkler systems, things at home would be better. I don't think I would enjoy those jobs though. That is why I choose accept.

If we AMT's at DL had been union, I'm sure we would have given up some of the same things we have given up. With a union we would have had a collective voice. I would have had a contract that could only be changed if the company and my agent agreed. Yes, I know in Chpt 11 the judge has the final say. Yes, I also think AMFA did a poor job at NW. Looking back they should have struck at the first offer rejection. Instead they waited until NW had all the dregs of the AMT world lined up.

Let's get back to the 'At will contract'. For you anti union folk this is the way to go. I ask you this. Would you buy a car with a contract where the lender could change the payment for any reason they see fit, but your only recourse was to give up the car? How about a home loan where the bank could raise your rate anytime. You pay the mortgage on time but times are bad for the bank, so up goes the rate. If you don't like it, move out. Sounds absurd, but that is exactly the type of contract your income is tied to.

 

[HottootrotNyc]

So you're a mechanic for NWA currently? If thats true, then my everyones time has been wasted on this post......

 

[southwind]

Vimes--

You're a little late to the game. The company already has plenty of anti-union plants lurking around on here. When you report back to your handlers, make sure you let them know you need a new website to go to.


P.S. You also might want to let them know that AMFA at NW/DL has been decertified as the bargaining agent... Or maybe you're just getting an early start on thwarting the next card drive?

Lot of Union plants too !

 

[bagboy]

Kev,

I was busy working 12 hours per day along with my fellow workers keeping thousands of people working and keeping an airline flying safely.

12 hours, well give a cookie to old Vimes. I don't have much to say here that hasn't been said by the rest. I just wanted to thank you for giving us and the world your all. Congrats.

 

[tech2101]

Kev,

I was busy working 12 hours per day along with my fellow workers keeping thousands of people working and keeping an airline flying safely.

Let me guess...

You started as a mechanic at NWA in September of 2005, and now are a proud anti-union voice...

We all know who and what you are.

 

[Dignity]

everyones time has been wasted on this post......

not really.

in general, it is important to read opinions from different angles.. so it appears to the reader in another way.. helping form balanced perspectives.