Union vs Non Union My Response

[1Conehead]

could you define lazy?


I believe a union cannot protect someone's job if that individual does not follow policies and procedures, is continually late for work, does not perform the job as outlined or expected.. or steals/lies..ext..

The IAM-AW that i worked with.That was was their main function.
To keep those people (everything else took a back seat).

 

[Vimes]

Here's a fact for you. The UAW is not responislbe for the cars the big three bring to market. If they have cars that no one wants to buy who do you think is responsible?

777,

Absolutely right, the UAW is not exclusively at fault; however they do bear an enormous part of that burden. Did the UAW ever use its incredible ability to blackmail the auto industry for the auto workers to have a larger say in what vehicles were produced or what type of vehicles were produced? No but they insisted on "job banks" which is full pay for no work and 25 thousand dollar vouchers for FREE cars every year and for pay and benefits that far out strip the average working American when education and job responsibility are compared. I mean no offense when I say, in large part we are talking about assembly line, factory workers, we are not talking about teachers or doctors or lawyers or programmers or lab techs or nurses we are talking about assembly line workers, IN NO WAY DO I MEAN TO DIMINISH ASSEMBLY LINE OR FACTORY WORKERS, but they lost their grip along time ago.

You have to acknowledge somewhat equal culpability, the auto workers milked the coffers dry and labored harder for better pay and more bennies then they ever thought of doing about actually having a say in the running of the company be it GM, FORD, or Chrysler.

Well, they ran the cow dry right along with some bad business decisions by upper management.

 

[Vimes]

There are plenty of American made cars I would like, they are just too expensive for what you get. Tell me the UAW isnt a part of that problem

Dal Mech,

 

[Vimes]

The IAM-AW that i worked with.That was was their main function.
To keep those people (everything else took a back seat).

1Conehead,

Witnessed the IAM in "action" :down: have to agree with you.

 

[Dignity]

today's American cars are basically on the same level as most imports, they are pretty good (I sort of think people are getting what they pay for, that is of course they can get a car loan from the bank), and there are affordable prices shopping around and negotiating the price (I hope people just did not go in and pay sticker price!) .

the other side would be the recession, global recession, swine flu (ok maybe not swine flu...)

and also the fact that Nancy Pelosi demanding a government backed stimulus package to the banks must be approved in order to open credit, pump needed money into the banks so they can start loaning money again..(which of course did not happen) it didn't make good business sense for the banks to loan money instead they sat on it. (did anyone thank the taxpayers?)

maybe instead of pumping government money into the banks (that failed anyway) they should have given taxpayers vouchers to purchase a new vehicle?

oh!

most banks did stop all car loans, a lot of banks folded..and still are...

of course those at the top making the decisions didn't help much either.

blaming a worker as the "problem or part of it" just seems more like a way to shift responsibility and accountability...(when other factors just seemed to be..swept under the rug or maybe just forgotten)

my idea is.. when mentioning one factor its probably a good idea to list all of it.


Chrysler should not have asked for tax payer money if they intended to sell out to Fiat...(which was probably in the works for a while).. that is sort of not the workers fault either..

hopefully its a turning point for the better..

 

[Dignity]

(everything else took a back seat).

I do not know what you personally experienced..(I hope its better for you)

 

[jalbalpa]

Do you all realize that the cost of the workforce at GM is only 10% of the yearly budget!!!!!!!

10% people, why are you making a fuss about 10%? I know people make it seem like the cost of labor is 80% of the cost of the car...but its not!

UAW workers have been taking cuts since 2005 to help GM, some workers to as much as a 50% pay cut even before this last deal.

Reason GM and other automakers went under????

Continous loss of marketshare!

Who's fault is that?

Not the UAW workers, they simply make the cars they are told to build. Maybe they should have created better fuel efficient cars a long time ago...there is plenty of blame to go around...but you can't blame the workers!

 

[Dignity]

on the flip side.

...but when the GM workers accepted the concessions just recently do you know what Gettelfinger said? during a news conference he went on about it was a disgrace .."we had to do anything" regarding concessions, when they were made.. (not the smartest thing to say)....(knowing full well market share has been lost, strategic mistakes were made regarding GM former CEO and other issues, asking for taxpayer money to bail them out and well... a very expensive labor contract in the midst of bankruptcy)

if a company is asking taxpayers to bail them out, I think some in the Union need to keep a lid on it...(regarding some comments that may be unnecessary, JMO)

if the disgrace is losing market share well that is called competition. if the disgrace consumers purchasing foreign that is also a wakeup call that things should have been built a little differently in the past. (leave someone walking repeatedly, they might not buy that brand again) lessons learned...

the fact of the matter everyone needs to help in attempting to turn GM around. (I personally however will probably not consider a Chrysler purchase going forward JMO)..

I do try to see it from different perspectives and you know people will tune in and react to comments such as Gettelfinger who basically just dismisses the part they play as well.

it is not a disgrace the workers recognize the fact they need to at least contribute getting costs in line, helping save GM....at this time... and it doesn't make the situation their fault but it shows they (the workers) see the bigger picture...

 

[Vimes]

today's American cars are basically on the same level as most imports, they are pretty good (I sort of think people are getting what they pay for, that is of course they can get a car loan from the bank), and there are affordable prices shopping around and negotiating the price (I hope people just did not go in and pay sticker price!) .

the other side would be the recession, global recession, swine flu (ok maybe not swine flu...)

and also the fact that Nancy Pelosi demanding a government backed stimulus package to the banks must be approved in order to open credit, pump needed money into the banks so they can start loaning money again..(which of course did not happen) it didn't make good business sense for the banks to loan money instead they sat on it. (did anyone thank the taxpayers?)

maybe instead of pumping government money into the banks (that failed anyway) they should have given taxpayers vouchers to purchase a new vehicle?

oh!

most banks did stop all car loans, a lot of banks folded..and still are...

of course those at the top making the decisions didn't help much either.

blaming a worker as the "problem or part of it" just seems more like a way to shift responsibility and accountability...(when other factors just seemed to be..swept under the rug or maybe just forgotten)

my idea is.. when mentioning one factor its probably a good idea to list all of it.


Chrysler should not have asked for tax payer money if they intended to sell out to Fiat...(which was probably in the works for a while).. that is sort of not the workers fault either..

hopefully its a turning point for the better..

Dignity,

As far as the auto industry, there is plenty of blame to go around and yes its from the top down but one wrong from one auto industry faction does not excuse wrongs from other auto industry factions. There is plenty of culpability to go around. As for NANCY PELOSI, well personally speaking she is one of historys biggest most pompous, hypocritical, lying, cheating, non representing, Huey P Long pretending, back slapping, baby kissing, back stabbing politicians ever to exist, eclipsed, although I honestly did not think her frauds could be eclipsed so easily or quickly by one Obama and his foreign Soroes loving fellow frauds masquerading as American politicians.
Reality does not touch Pelosi's world and I am or was until this past election a life long democrat.

I do not think DAL MECH meant that the unions are exclusively responsible for this auto industry mess, ABSOLUTELY THEY ARE NOT; however they do bear a large part of the burden, IMHO.

This current White House administration (said as if spitting) did not feel the need to subsidize AMERICAN industry instead they subsidized European industry in the form of Chrysler/Fiat that pretty much puts an end to their complaints about European gov's subsidizing Airbus. Yes I agree the Fiat deal has been in the works for sometime and this current administration KNEW IT.

Having said that, one issue is to a large degree separate from the other in that we as American workers have to stand up and demand industry returned. To do that someone has to be honest enough to face realities. One of those globalized realities has been and is an assembly line factory worker can not and should not expect 80K a year a Free new car every year and better bennies that our elected officials receive. We have to stop the hypocrisy's from all levels, but you have to clean up your own back yard before you stray into someone elses and I think the power is genuinely and for a very short window in the peoples hands, but if we sit on our hands and do nothing but watch our tax dollars go to other countries and shop so that our money goes from our pockets straight to other countries we have voted with our dollars. We have voted to lay off our neighbors as well as ourselves.

Selling off the auto industry was in part a thank you to G. Soros and Gettlefinger. It was looked at that if they sold off most of the auto industry it broke the back of the union without having to be honest with the people (the union members that "got out the vote), honesty after all does not go hand in hand with political pandering, as for Soroes well he owes quite a bit of TATA Motors and has been trying like hell to get TATA Motors into Walmart, now his election thank you from Obama is he will get his wish in the near future. So it all comes right back to the every day working American and the need to open eyes with real honesty although Gettelfingers tongue might fall out if he actually told his membership the truth for once.

Dignity, you "sorta" summed it up with this statement "that is sort of not the workers fault either.." ahhh but sort of is still some of.

 

[Vimes]

on the flip side.

...but when the GM workers accepted the concessions just recently do you know what Gettelfinger said? during a news conference he went on about it was a disgrace .."we had to do anything" regarding concessions, when they were made.. (not the smartest thing to say)....(knowing full well market share has been lost, strategic mistakes were made regarding GM former CEO and other issues, asking for taxpayer money to bail them out and well... a very expensive labor contract in the midst of bankruptcy)

Where any of these "disgraceful" concessions mirrored in Gettelfingers pay? NO THEY WERE NOT AND NEVER HAVE BEEN. He is one of the biggest faces of union hypocrisy. He has been too spineless to stand up and actually organize the auto labor force to be a real force for the good of themselves, the company that employees them and the American people. Instead he has pandered along the same old union rhetoric lines right up to the end, denying the membership honesty because it would not have been a popular stance to take but honesty rarely is.


if a company is asking taxpayers to bail them out, I think some in the Union need to keep a lid on it...(regarding some comments that may be unnecessary, JMO)

Absolutely it was a stupid statement to make, but not his first and certainly not his last. The sad thing is the whole thing could have been used to benefit the auto workers and the auto industry in AMERICA but that was not what Gettelfinger was actually working towards.

if the disgrace is losing market share well that is called competition. if the disgrace consumers purchasing foreign that is also a wakeup call that things should have been built a little differently in the past. (leave someone walking repeatedly, they might not buy that brand again) lessons learned...

They (the American Auto Industry) has been slapped with that same lesson year after year for more than 15 years now, when were they supposed to get it? The UAW membership was going to work doing their jobs and getting one side of the coin of information, they were being fed information instead of being given the TRUTH. Auto workers were not and are not stupid, talk to them they will tell you they have wanted better designed vehicles for years they have wanted to build more fuel efficient vehicles for years, but they never too any steps to make it happen because their "organization" was about getting more and more for themselves in the short term and ignoring the long term. It was a perpetuation of the us against them mentality and it sunk them, sadly.

the fact of the matter everyone needs to help in attempting to turn GM around. (I personally however will probably not consider a Chrysler purchase going forward JMO)..

Personally, I will not buy a GM or a Chrysler and I am hoping for a new American car company to come out of the wood work soon, or we will have lost the last vestige of major manufacturing in America.

I do try to see it from different perspectives and you know people will tune in and react to comments such as Gettelfinger who basically just dismisses the part they play as well.

Hell Dignity, Gettelfinger helped orchestrate the decimation of the UAW

it is not a disgrace the workers recognize the fact they need to at least contribute getting costs in line, helping save GM....at this time... and it doesn't make the situation their fault but it shows they (the workers) see the bigger picture...

If they really saw the bigger picture they should have looked more closely at Harley Davidson maybe they would have colored in the picture then. Instead of listening to the same old rhetoric and playing the same old game. They needed to step up to the plate and show they have ideas and some of those ideas needed implementing they needed to give back in EXCHANGE FOR not really control but input REAL INPUT not b.s. pandering, they should have gotten loud and taken their issues to the public at large. Although the public at large has no soft spot for auto workers around the country you will find people largely believe they are over paid over indulged and under educated there is a pervasive sense around America (from non union American workers) that UAW members are or were screwing their companies and screwing every car buyer as well. I am sorry but it is the truth of what a lot of Joe and Jane average working American's who pay car payments feel and think. If you ask them for their opinions about UAW members well I promise their language can get quite colorful.

 

[Vimes]

Do you all realize that the cost of the workforce at GM is only 10% of the yearly budget!!!!!!!

Au Contrair Mon Frair! That is simply an accounting trick. For example, the 100.00-200.00 leases for cars that cost non-UAW members 300-500 per month were expended not as labor cost. The 25K a year for a new car was not expended as labor cost and there are a myriad of other such accounting tricks used and insisted upon by the UAW to make labor cost appear less than what they were. That was Gettelfingers attempt at public relations.


10% people, why are you making a fuss about 10%? I know people make it seem like the cost of labor is 80% of the cost of the car...but its not!

Because it is not a factual number and the population of the auto industry must bear some responsibility for not only aiding in sucking the coffers dry but in not standing up and doing something about it what was going on instead they simply demanded more and then hung their heads when they had to take cuts.... recently. Where is the responsibility to the company? Where is the innovation and ingenuity? Oh, wait according to Gettelfinger auto workers are not responsible for innovation or ingenuity or responsible to the company beyond their work week although they expected the company to be responsible to them from cradle to grave.

UAW workers have been taking cuts since 2005 to help GM, some workers to as much as a 50% pay cut even before this last deal.

Ummm, well I agree UAW workers have been taking but you can not call the buyouts they were given as taking. That was more like silver platter service. For example there was a guy here in Detroit that had quit a job to go back to work for one of the big 3 he was making a good living at the job he had and he had good benefits; however he also knew before going back that it would probably only be for a short time. He said to me "its ok the UAW said I will get a get big chunk of change then I will just go back to the job I left" well as it turned out he was at the auto company for 3 freaking months before they handed him 100,000.00 with bennies to take a buyout. HEY MY HAND IS UP GIVE ME ONE OF THOSE KINDS OF BUYOUTS!

Reason GM and other automakers went under????

Yep part of the reason certainly not the whole reason

Continous loss of marketshare!

Yep, that is not news to any car buying American

Who's fault is that?

Not the UAW workers, they simply make the cars they are told to build. Maybe they should have created better fuel efficient cars a long time ago...there is plenty of blame to go around...but you can't blame the workers!

Oh that is right, you can not blame the workers for anything, they have no culpability at all, they have no responsibility. That is the same excuse used by the Nazi death camp guards and that is just what it is AN EXCUSE AND A PATHETIC ONE! Just because you work on an assembly line doesnt mean you are brainless or do not see things going on in your own company that you can help make better. We all have to man-up/woman-up and quit making excuses and start making CHANGES

 

[tech2101]

That is the same excuse used by the Nazi death camp guards and that is just what it is AN EXCUSE AND A PATHETIC ONE!

That statement only makes sense coming from one who cannot get a job unless they slither across a picket line.

 

[Vimes]

That statement only makes sense coming from one who cannot get a job unless they slither across a picket line.

You must still be lazing in the land of Denial because if your statement were true in the least I would have had to have been supporting my wife and child on food stamps and gov. hand outs which my family has never taken. We have lived on my paychecks my earnings from working in the real world.

I did not agree to go to work for NWA and agree to cross an AMFA picket line lightly it was an informed choice. No one ever thought the AMFA mechs would have displayed such arrogance, such lack of knowledge about the economic and political issues surrounding their choices not to mention the basics of common sense and hold their heads up and make the biggest mistake of their careers. No one thought they would be so arrogant, but surprise they were and apparently some still are.

When you make a mistake you are supposed to learn from it you are supposed to grow from it. Some did and some of the ex-AMFA mechs are much more knowledgeable now, some though refuse to accept the truth of what was done and what happened and HOW it happened. I supposed it is easier for sheeple to blame counterparts rather than accept the truth.

 

[777 fixer]

There are plenty of American made cars I would like, they are just too expensive for what you get. Tell me the UAW isnt a part of that problem

Could you tell me which ones are to expensive for what you get and which ones are not?

 

[777 fixer]

777,

Absolutely right, the UAW is not exclusively at fault; however they do bear an enormous part of that burden. Did the UAW ever use its incredible ability to blackmail the auto industry for the auto workers to have a larger say in what vehicles were produced or what type of vehicles were produced? No but they insisted on "job banks" which is full pay for no work and 25 thousand dollar vouchers for FREE cars every year and for pay and benefits that far out strip the average working American when education and job responsibility are compared. I mean no offense when I say, in large part we are talking about assembly line, factory workers, we are not talking about teachers or doctors or lawyers or programmers or lab techs or nurses we are talking about assembly line workers, IN NO WAY DO I MEAN TO DIMINISH ASSEMBLY LINE OR FACTORY WORKERS, but they lost their grip along time ago.

You have to acknowledge somewhat equal culpability, the auto workers milked the coffers dry and labored harder for better pay and more bennies then they ever thought of doing about actually having a say in the running of the company be it GM, FORD, or Chrysler.

Well, they ran the cow dry right along with some bad business decisions by upper management.

You didn't say that in you original post. What you said was Oh and how is that union thing working out for thousands of auto workers? Looks like they blackmailed the entire industry into bankruptcy to me. Seems a bit disingenuous to me to all of a sudden change your tune a bit when someone points out a fact.

Are the days of job banks and fully paid retiree medical benefits over? Yes they are. However I'm not going to be like you and pretend that everyone else has lost their "grip" except for me. Or talk about other people's professions as if I know what the hell I'm talking about. And here's why. The day may come vimes that someone looks at you and says "You’re the reason the airlines can't make money. If the people who ran the airlines had any brains they would cut your pay". How would you feel? Guess what, that day may come. You might come to work one day and they will have cut your pay by 1/3 or even more. Then what are you going to do.