I'm trying to have an intellagent conversation and your atempt at humor is not funny. BYE BYE
Letter fron NWA AFA Vice-President
- Thread starter Danny Campbell
- Start date
I'm trying to have an intellagent conversation and your atempt at humor is not funny. BYE BYE
Here's my question: How does Ms. Rook know what took place at this meeting? Was she present?
My guess is that she wasn't and she is just using scare tactics. If AFA is so great, why do people have to be scared into joining?
LukeAisleWalker
Veteran
- Sep 29, 2007
- 715
- 2
Cooper,
I agree with you, I don't think it was the best use of humor to drive home a point, however....
the majority of people on this forum wholeheatdedly disagree with you and are trying to make the point that it doesn't matter how many times you post or what kind of concoction you come up with (2,000 hired in '98 by NW/2,000 in '99 by DL), those '98 employees are SENIOR to the '99 employees. Just like they would be if they were hired by Delta. It's all one company (or will be). That's life. It doesn't always seem fair. You haven't learned that by now? Besides, how are 2,000 people going to transfer into your base all of a sudden or even 500? I don't get it. If you're talking about layoffs, why should you be protected more than someone who started before you? Do you think that's fair? I don't. If this were a situation like PA where Delta was say, just buying NW Asian routes and taking some of their employees, then I might agree with you. But it's the "whole enchilada" and they are bringing just as much to the table as Delta. Asia is VERY restricted as far as landing rights, etc.. are concerned. It would take Delta probably 25 more years to have the extensive Asian network that they will get "overnight" in this transaction. China is one of the fastest growing economies in the world...much more so than Europe (Delta's stronghold). You have to put all of this into context.
LukeAisleWalker
Veteran
- Sep 29, 2007
- 715
- 2
Why don't you send her an email and ask her? I'm sure there is an address posted on the NWAafa site. Just Google it. Until you know for sure, YOU are, like you wrote, just "guessing", perhaps in your own attempt to "scare" people away from AFA.
BTW, I didn't need Ms. Rook to "scare" me into voting for AFA. Recent events and recent Delta mgt. (perhaps excluding Mr. Grinstein) did a good enough job on their own.
Yankeestu
Member
Scramble, You have to realize that you are choosing between Richard Anderson or Delta FA's to determine your future. Why? Because WE would be AFA, WE negotiate our contract, WE would be the council members.
There is no third party. Pat Friend and the legal team are in the DCA office and are their for our support.
To not trust AFA is to not trust ourselves or our Flight Attendant peers.
So?.......you want to TAKE AWAY someone's seniority because you, hypothetically, were hired in the wrong year?
DOH isnt the only reason to judge AFA, look at their history. They've help SHAPE the industry for ALL FLIGHT ATTENDANTS: http://www.afanet.org/default.asp?nc=6336&id=37
Luke I am sure you think I am stupid and just stuborn. And maybe I am the latter however, you said in the above response that in my scenerio the 98 employees should be senior to the 99 employees because they are all one now. But they are not all one now and that is why it is important to be fair when making us all one. Each airline may have had different hiring cycles which is no fault of the employees, and as the employees of the 99 airline they could drop 2000 positions instead of half that if people were woven in. DOH doesnt explain when or why different airlines do thier hiring. Someone from DAL that is hired in this type of scenerio I discribed who is flying high time trips could potentially loose a lot of money and that isnt fair. Just because NWA may have had a huge hiring spree just before DAL doesnt mean DAL employees should get the shaft, and this works both ways. You also said on here that most people have the opposing opinion than me and basically I think you were saying if Iam out numbered I should just go away. But this is a DAL message board I work for DAL and I aint going anywhere. That is why this is a democracy. Maybe I want to give my opinions in the efforts to give a different point of view. If everyone on here just agreed with one another then not much would change. Like I have already said on many threads, I support unionizing but not this DOH policy. The results will be with us for the rest of our careers, we can always unionize later but if we agree to this DOH policy then our seniority will be changed forever and there is nothing we can do about it. Now is the time to stand up and make sure we are not mistreated. I am sorry if you think I am being pigheaded but my job is at stake as well.
LukeAisleWalker
Veteran
- Sep 29, 2007
- 715
- 2
Cooper,
I never said you shouldn't voice your opinion or that you should go away. You are projecting and I think, sort of seeing yourself as a "victim." I am merely saying that as a matter of factual reference, you are in the minority on this board. Whether or not you're in a minority with the entire FA group, I don't know. Democracy also means a vote and we are doing that now. That you choose to wait because as you say "we can always unionize later", is a little naive. If we lose this election and IF Delta is able to dilute the NW FA ranks by a combination of early-outs, furloughs, etc...so that it comprises less than 35% of the combined FA group, then there won't be a union vote for a long, long, long time. And in that time, lots can happen. As a matter of fact, take a look at this report where Steenland says the combined airline may very well shrink:
http://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/stories...ml?ana=from_rss
You have made up your mind and that's fine. There's nothing any one of us can do at this point to change it so frankly, this thread is getting a little tiresome. I hope everything works out for you.
What do you mean?
That post was frickin' hillarious!
Once again , Time served is time served.
Resistance is futile, Prepare to be assimilated.
Yeah I guess you are right, I have pretty much made up my mind. Until I find facts that DOH is totally the fair way to go for everyone then I have made my decision. The chart that was put out is very obscure and doesnt account for the early retirements that are going to happen at the same time we finish voting. It concerns me that not many people (at least on here) seem to share my concerns. Since my line of thinking is tiresome I will limit my comments only to the thread I started "AFA yeah DOH no". That way you dont even have to look at my comments on other threads. If you wish to ingage me on this or any other topic maybe I will see you there.
dapoes
Veteran
- May 17, 2008
- 3,543
- 2,716
This is an e-mail that we received from management. Joanne Smith is our VP In-Flight Service. Apparently, the NMB believes that the afa-CWA may not be playing fair.
I went to the NMB website, and a letter is there. If you want to read the letter for yourself, visit NMB Letter about afa-CWA Interference" http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2008/35n042.pdf
-----------------------
NMB Rulings on Election Issues
By Joanne Smith
With the voting window quickly coming to a close, the AFA has engaged in several inappropriate actions in hopes of winning votes. I am happy to report, however, that as a result of Delta challenging the AFA's improper actions, the National Mediation Board (NMB) has issued a ruling concluding that AFA's conduct violated the NMB's rules and is evidence of interference. The NMB has also issued a ruling rejecting the AFA's request to exclude flight attendants on furlough status and many others from having a say as to whether they want AFA representation.
NMB's Ruling on AFA Compromising the Security and Integrity of the Internet Voting Process
Last week, AFA began sending unsolicited e-mail messages titled "Voting Instructions" to large numbers of flight attendants on a "blast" basis. Those e-mails included a "hyperlink" to the NMB's voting Web site with instructions to click on the link that would submit a vote for the AFA. (A hyperlink, when viewed and clicked on a computer, takes the viewer directly to another internet site.) When the AFA engaged in similar conduct in a prior election at Compass Airlines (which the AFA lost), the NMB issued a notice stating that publishing a hyperlink to the NMB's voting Web site could compromise the integrity of the election process and would be considered evidence of interference.
So, when flight attendants brought the AFA's e-mails to our attention, Delta sent a letter to the NMB asserting that the AFA's emails constituted misconduct and asked the NMB to order the AFA to immediately cease publishing hyperlinks.
Although the NMB typically does not address interference charges until after an election is over, they said it was necessary to address this claim immediately "because of concerns that the appearance of the Board's impartiality may have been compromised."
The NMB ruled that the AFA's publishing of a hyperlink in a message showing the NMB logo and a photo of the NMB's voting Web site "has significant potential to mislead employees into believing that the material is an official statement of the NMB" and to mislead employees into believing that the NMB endorses participating in this election. As a result of the AFA's misconduct, the NMB required that Delta post a notice to flight attendants stating the NMB never takes a position on how or whether anyone should vote and that the official voting instructions come directly from the NMB and not from any other party. The NMB also stated that "NMB elections are conducted by secret ballot and that the confidentiality of the voting process must be maintained."
Despite the NMB's statement about honoring the confidentiality of the voting process, the AFA continues to call flight attendants and demands to know whether or not they have voted for AFA. In fact, the AFA is now going even further and stating that they will not leave flight attendants alone until everyone on their list says that they have voted for the AFA and confirms it in an e-mail to AFA.
Delta has now alerted the NMB to the AFA's repeated abuse of the NMB's rules on confidentiality. Your decision whether to vote for AFA or not vote so Delta flight attendants can remain union-free is your personal choice. Neither the AFA nor Delta has the right to ask how you voted or to request that you notify them after voting. The difference is that Delta respects your rights.
NMB's Ruling on AFA's Challenges to Delta's List of Voters
We previously advised you that the AFA filed challenges asking the NMB to exclude many categories of Delta flight attendants from the roster of eligible voters. The AFA wanted to exclude the following categories from having a voice:
• Furloughed flight attendants - the AFA asked the NMB to rule that Delta flight attendants on furlough status no longer have a valid employment relationship with Delta
• Flight attendants on disability status - the AFA asked the NMB to rule that flight attendants on disability status do not have a legitimate expectation of returning to work
• Flight attendants who volunteer for special assignments - the AFA claimed that those flight attendants are really part of management and should not have a voice in the election
• Flight attendants in training who completed their IOE before the NMB ruled that there would be an election - the AFA asserted that the NMB's rules made those employees ineligible
We are pleased to report that the NMB has rejected AFA's request to exclude flight attendants on furlough, flight attendants on disability (with one exception based on the denial of disability status), and flight attendants who volunteered for special assignments, from having a voice in this election. The NMB also ruled that new hire flight attendants who completed their IOE before the January 31 cut-off date for eligibility will remain on the list of eligible voters, but that the NMB's longstanding rules preclude from eligibility those who had not completed their IOE by the cut-off date. We had asked the NMB to change its rules regarding the cut-off date, but they ruled that they would not do so in the middle of an election. All in all, this is a very positive ruling for Delta flight attendants.
DID YOU KNOW?
Now Northwest flight attendants are stopping Delta passengers at the Atlanta airport to hand out AFA-sponsored materials. The NWA flight attendants are asking Delta passengers to distribute their materials to flight attendants on the aircraft. The passengers do not know these people are not
Delta employees. It appears that AFA is already attempting to create chaos at Delta.
I went to the NMB website, and a letter is there. If you want to read the letter for yourself, visit NMB Letter about afa-CWA Interference" http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2008/35n042.pdf
-----------------------
NMB Rulings on Election Issues
By Joanne Smith
With the voting window quickly coming to a close, the AFA has engaged in several inappropriate actions in hopes of winning votes. I am happy to report, however, that as a result of Delta challenging the AFA's improper actions, the National Mediation Board (NMB) has issued a ruling concluding that AFA's conduct violated the NMB's rules and is evidence of interference. The NMB has also issued a ruling rejecting the AFA's request to exclude flight attendants on furlough status and many others from having a say as to whether they want AFA representation.
NMB's Ruling on AFA Compromising the Security and Integrity of the Internet Voting Process
Last week, AFA began sending unsolicited e-mail messages titled "Voting Instructions" to large numbers of flight attendants on a "blast" basis. Those e-mails included a "hyperlink" to the NMB's voting Web site with instructions to click on the link that would submit a vote for the AFA. (A hyperlink, when viewed and clicked on a computer, takes the viewer directly to another internet site.) When the AFA engaged in similar conduct in a prior election at Compass Airlines (which the AFA lost), the NMB issued a notice stating that publishing a hyperlink to the NMB's voting Web site could compromise the integrity of the election process and would be considered evidence of interference.
So, when flight attendants brought the AFA's e-mails to our attention, Delta sent a letter to the NMB asserting that the AFA's emails constituted misconduct and asked the NMB to order the AFA to immediately cease publishing hyperlinks.
Although the NMB typically does not address interference charges until after an election is over, they said it was necessary to address this claim immediately "because of concerns that the appearance of the Board's impartiality may have been compromised."
The NMB ruled that the AFA's publishing of a hyperlink in a message showing the NMB logo and a photo of the NMB's voting Web site "has significant potential to mislead employees into believing that the material is an official statement of the NMB" and to mislead employees into believing that the NMB endorses participating in this election. As a result of the AFA's misconduct, the NMB required that Delta post a notice to flight attendants stating the NMB never takes a position on how or whether anyone should vote and that the official voting instructions come directly from the NMB and not from any other party. The NMB also stated that "NMB elections are conducted by secret ballot and that the confidentiality of the voting process must be maintained."
Despite the NMB's statement about honoring the confidentiality of the voting process, the AFA continues to call flight attendants and demands to know whether or not they have voted for AFA. In fact, the AFA is now going even further and stating that they will not leave flight attendants alone until everyone on their list says that they have voted for the AFA and confirms it in an e-mail to AFA.
Delta has now alerted the NMB to the AFA's repeated abuse of the NMB's rules on confidentiality. Your decision whether to vote for AFA or not vote so Delta flight attendants can remain union-free is your personal choice. Neither the AFA nor Delta has the right to ask how you voted or to request that you notify them after voting. The difference is that Delta respects your rights.
NMB's Ruling on AFA's Challenges to Delta's List of Voters
We previously advised you that the AFA filed challenges asking the NMB to exclude many categories of Delta flight attendants from the roster of eligible voters. The AFA wanted to exclude the following categories from having a voice:
• Furloughed flight attendants - the AFA asked the NMB to rule that Delta flight attendants on furlough status no longer have a valid employment relationship with Delta
• Flight attendants on disability status - the AFA asked the NMB to rule that flight attendants on disability status do not have a legitimate expectation of returning to work
• Flight attendants who volunteer for special assignments - the AFA claimed that those flight attendants are really part of management and should not have a voice in the election
• Flight attendants in training who completed their IOE before the NMB ruled that there would be an election - the AFA asserted that the NMB's rules made those employees ineligible
We are pleased to report that the NMB has rejected AFA's request to exclude flight attendants on furlough, flight attendants on disability (with one exception based on the denial of disability status), and flight attendants who volunteered for special assignments, from having a voice in this election. The NMB also ruled that new hire flight attendants who completed their IOE before the January 31 cut-off date for eligibility will remain on the list of eligible voters, but that the NMB's longstanding rules preclude from eligibility those who had not completed their IOE by the cut-off date. We had asked the NMB to change its rules regarding the cut-off date, but they ruled that they would not do so in the middle of an election. All in all, this is a very positive ruling for Delta flight attendants.
DID YOU KNOW?
Now Northwest flight attendants are stopping Delta passengers at the Atlanta airport to hand out AFA-sponsored materials. The NWA flight attendants are asking Delta passengers to distribute their materials to flight attendants on the aircraft. The passengers do not know these people are not
Delta employees. It appears that AFA is already attempting to create chaos at Delta.
Yankeestu
Member
Yeah.......so?.....many of our passengers support labor and are union members themselves.
If they want to participate in our campaign ...Great! Maybe if DAL FA's actually spoke to some other union members they would learn a thing or two. Is it too much to ask that you be informed before making a decision?
Make peace with having representation and if you don't like what you know, get involved and help us write the contract that is going to govern our futures. If it doesn't go through first time around, be sure....it will when NW FA's are added to the mix. You can either make it work for all of us and get involved, or keep complaining about the efforts of passionate supporters of the labor movement.
Reach out to the thousands instead of the handful of DAL FA's that read this message board. Part of having a successful union is everyone participating. Start participating! Mark my words, we will have union representation sometime in the near future.
Unfortunately your credibility is in question with a false quote reflecting our respective salaries.
It makes your comments against the union incredibly entertaining especially when you throw the deceptive word around. Don't represent your self to be deceptive.
WhatBag?
Advanced
- Apr 29, 2008
- 165
- 0
AFA will NOT change the DOH policy, so the DAL f/a's may as well either vote against AFA or get over it. Welcome to the real world. Your management team of past may kiss up to you to get you to vote no, but AFA isn't going to change a policy just for Delta.
In 21 years at US Airways, we have integrated PSA, Piedmont, Trump Shuttle, and now AWA. There will always be some that are unhappy...usually 0-6 year f/a's, but the rest realize it all levels out. There was a drive early in the AWA merger to get AFA to change the DOH policy and it was CRUSHED! Do you Delta f/a's really think the rest of the AFA carriers would even REMOTELY consider changing the policy for you when millions were spent for you all to snub us? I think not!!
In 21 years at US Airways, we have integrated PSA, Piedmont, Trump Shuttle, and now AWA. There will always be some that are unhappy...usually 0-6 year f/a's, but the rest realize it all levels out. There was a drive early in the AWA merger to get AFA to change the DOH policy and it was CRUSHED! Do you Delta f/a's really think the rest of the AFA carriers would even REMOTELY consider changing the policy for you when millions were spent for you all to snub us? I think not!!
Good points.AFA will NOT change the DOH policy, so the DAL f/a's may as well either vote against AFA or get over it. Welcome to the real world. Your management team of past may kiss up to you to get you to vote no, but AFA isn't going to change a policy just for Delta.
In 21 years at US Airways, we have integrated PSA, Piedmont, Trump Shuttle, and now AWA. There will always be some that are unhappy...usually 0-6 year f/a's, but the rest realize it all levels out. There was a drive early in the AWA merger to get AFA to change the DOH policy and it was CRUSHED! Do you Delta f/a's really think the rest of the AFA carriers would even REMOTELY consider changing the policy for you when millions were spent for you all to snub us? I think not!!
thanks -- I'll try to keep any future posts less 'long'
Keep up the good work ol' boy - ur doing an awesome job keeping the Delta group informed. I for one hope that Delta f/a's don't buy the rhetoric and scare tactics of DAL mgmt. - talk about interference - GEZZZZ. Please keep posting. Best of luck and hopes that AFA will prevail and ALL the f/a's at the NEW Delta can be represented.
