TWU negotiations.........what?

[Vortilon]

Then the FAA should ban mechanics working double shifts (16hours). Flight crews have restrictions on their duty days, but yet mechanics can work double shifts and still be alert?

The difference being, the guy doing the double has planned for it; got plenty of rest, packed extra food etc. Now maybe the guy being forced to work o/t has another job (a good percentage of us do) and he is at his limit. That's the way I see it. :blink:

 

[Hopeful]

The difference being, the guy doing the double has planned for it; got plenty of rest, packed extra food etc. Now maybe the guy being forced to work o/t has another job (a good percentage of us do) and he is at his limit. That's the way I see it. :blink:

+

Not to get in too much of a debate, you may be partially right. But here's how I see it.. There are many mechanics that have their double shifts planned out weeks and sometimes months in advance. True, they come prepared as you stated, but they cannot prepare for trying to stay awake for 16 hours, especially since there are no teenagers or mechanics in their 20's around anymore.
I myself have been sent out many an occasion to "help" a mechanic working a "double shift" who fell asleep in the toolbox room and missed his trip only to have the crew call in that there are two pages of log items.
I am the first one to criticize executive compensation, greed, and arrogance. And I will be the first one to criticize those mechancis who insist that they are worth a six figure salary but refuse to be professional enough to not sleep on the job and be accountable for their own actions.
You can hear them tell the crew chiefs not to give them an A CHECK because they already worked 8 hours on a double and need some sleep.
So let's stop tip-toeing around the problem which is mechanics are sometimes wrong in their work habits contrary to those who believe it is always management's fault.
Yea they allow the double shifts because as long as they permit it, they don't have to get serious about negotiations.
And before I hear the "well they need the extra money" defense, I agree with that.

But please don't tell me that if a mechanic is forced to work 4 hours OT, that he or she won't be able to drive home safely, when they are the exact same people who work 2 and 3 doubles a week.

 

[JAFA]

Not everybody lives within walking distance to mass transit. They would lose that arguement. We have people who live up to 60 miles away, and they may live four or five miles away from the LIRR with no bus service either. Alternate methods may be impractical.

If they worked you to the point where you're too physically impaired to drive then you were too impaired to work. The fact is the company wouldnt dare push it, if someone claims after 12 hours that they are too tired to work any longer he goes home, on the odd shifts, (Afternoons and Nights) he could probably get away with it after just eight if the company didnt tell him ahead of time to expect to work OT(if he normally doesnt work OT).

LOL, you clearly missed my point. I have already been told once to that i could just take the train if I was that tired. Oh, and I am one of the 60+ mile examples to referred to, but alas I'm not a mechanic so your other point just doesn't apply to me. In fact I was told to my face that where I live is my problem, not the company's problem, those words were used.

 

[Vortilon]

+

Not to get in too much of a debate, you may be partially right. But here's how I see it.. There are many mechanics that have their double shifts planned out weeks and sometimes months in advance. True, they come prepared as you stated, but they cannot prepare for trying to stay awake for 16 hours, especially since there are no teenagers or mechanics in their 20's around anymore.
I myself have been sent out many an occasion to "help" a mechanic working a "double shift" who fell asleep in the toolbox room and missed his trip only to have the crew call in that there are two pages of log items.
I am the first one to criticize executive compensation, greed, and arrogance. And I will be the first one to criticize those mechancis who insist that they are worth a six figure salary but refuse to be professional enough to not sleep on the job and be accountable for their own actions.
You can hear them tell the crew chiefs not to give them an A CHECK because they already worked 8 hours on a double and need some sleep.
So let's stop tip-toeing around the problem which is mechanics are sometimes wrong in their work habits contrary to those who believe it is always management's fault.
Yea they allow the double shifts because as long as they permit it, they don't have to get serious about negotiations.
And before I hear the "well they need the extra money" defense, I agree with that.

But please don't tell me that if a mechanic is forced to work 4 hours OT, that he or she won't be able to drive home safely, when they are the exact same people who work 2 and 3 doubles a week.

It has been said that AMTs are their own worst enemies. What you're posting on this public forum is a perfect example. Of course we could all bring up examples of people from all work groups that push the limits of reason at work. Save it for the break room.

 

[Bob Owens]

LOL, you clearly missed my point. I have already been told once to that i could just take the train if I was that tired. Oh, and I am one of the 60+ mile examples to referred to, but alas I'm not a mechanic so your other point just doesn't apply to me. In fact I was told to my face that where I live is my problem, not the company's problem, those words were used.

"but alas I'm not a mechanic so your other point doesnt apply to me"

That says it all. Just like you can go out for lunch and tip a few martinis we cant because different rules apply to us, and we shouldnt be worked beyond the point of impairment. Our civil liberties have been put aside because of the fact that the job we do is critical for the safety of the thousands who board the planes we work on every day so the government demands that they randomly check our bodies for the presence of traces of alchohol or other drugs, they want to insure that we are not impaired when we work on airplanes.

 

[Hopeful]

It has been said that AMTs are their own worst enemies. What you're posting on this public forum is a perfect example. Of course we could all bring up examples of people from all work groups that push the limits of reason at work. Save it for the break room.

Not mentioning it in a public forum does not mean it does not happen. And yes it can be said of many a level of worker. I bring it up because if we as mechanics are arguing for better pay and benefits because of our responsibility, then we all need to act professional.

And as for saving it for the breakroom, it falls on deaf ears asking some people to act like professionals. Instead of suggesting that my posting this publicly makes me "our own worst enemy", tell me what goes on in your breakroom.
I call them as I seen them.

 

[iluvaa]

It has been said that AMTs are their own worst enemies. What you're posting on this public forum is a perfect example. Of course we could all bring up examples of people from all work groups that push the limits of reason at work. Save it for the break room.

I think he has a valid point we can not come on here and complain about management all the time and ignore our own slugs. We have many good and professional people but I think we could use purge of some dead weight.

 

[JAFA]

"but alas I'm not a mechanic so your other point doesnt apply to me"

That says it all. Just like you can go out for lunch and tip a few martinis we cant because different rules apply to us, and we shouldnt be worked beyond the point of impairment. Our civil liberties have been put aside because of the fact that the job we do is critical for the safety of the thousands who board the planes we work on every day so the government demands that they randomly check our bodies for the presence of traces of alchohol or other drugs, they want to insure that we are not impaired when we work on airplanes.

Sorry Bob, none of us, whether we turn a wrench, load a bag, or write tickets can go out for lunch and tip a few martinis. I don't know where that idea even came from. Guess what, there are several of us with "safety sensitive" jobs in all work groups and we too are subjuect to that same random testing. Oh yeah, you know what else? I personally have no problem being held to the same standards regarding drug and alcohol consumption and testing that our crews are held to. I happen to think that even without it I would owe to the person working next to me to not have any impairment when I work with them, wouldn't you expect it of me if I were working next to you?

My original point is still that I had been told exactly what you claimed the company couldn't tell me. I may have thought it BS when I was told it and said so at the time, but my manager still said it did what he set out to do.

 

[MCI transplant]

+

Not to get in too much of a debate, you may be partially right. But here's how I see it.. There are many mechanics that have their double shifts planned out weeks and sometimes months in advance. True, they come prepared as you stated, but they cannot prepare for trying to stay awake for 16 hours, especially since there are no teenagers or mechanics in their 20's around anymore.
I myself have been sent out many an occasion to "help" a mechanic working a "double shift" who fell asleep in the toolbox room and missed his trip only to have the crew call in that there are two pages of log items.
I am the first one to criticize executive compensation, greed, and arrogance. And I will be the first one to criticize those mechancis who insist that they are worth a six figure salary but refuse to be professional enough to not sleep on the job and be accountable for their own actions.
You can hear them tell the crew chiefs not to give them an A CHECK because they already worked 8 hours on a double and need some sleep.
So let's stop tip-toeing around the problem which is mechanics are sometimes wrong in their work habits contrary to those who believe it is always management's fault.
Yea they allow the double shifts because as long as they permit it, they don't have to get serious about negotiations.
And before I hear the "well they need the extra money" defense, I agree with that.

But please don't tell me that if a mechanic is forced to work 4 hours OT, that he or she won't be able to drive home safely, when they are the exact same people who work 2 and 3 doubles a week.

<_< ----- You know Hopeful, this is ironic! During my years at MCI/AA, the place had to be burning down before OT was even offered! We had AA natives transfer out of here because of lack of it! And your suggesting a Mechanic plan doubles "weeks in advance!?"

 

[Hopeful]

<_< ----- You know Hopeful, this is ironic! During my years at MCI/AA, the place had to be burning down before OT was even offered! We had AA natives transfer out of here because of lack of it! And your suggesting a Mechanic plan doubles "weeks in advance!?"

You may have not been following the convo. The doubles I am referring to are not OT, but a CS where one mechanic swaps a shift with another mechanic so one may get the day off and/or the other works just for the money or a day off in exchange. It's only straight time.
Hence, they plan doubles weeks in advance and work the two shifts back to back.
What is ironic is that the CS policy is non-contractual and does not mandate OT rates apply.

 

[MCI transplant]

You may have not been following the convo. The doubles I am referring to are not OT, but a CS where one mechanic swaps a shift with another mechanic so one may get the day off and/or the other works just for the money or a day off in exchange. It's only straight time.
Hence, they plan doubles weeks in advance and work the two shifts back to back.
What is ironic is that the CS policy is non-contractual and does not mandate OT rates apply.

<_< -----Sorry, my mistake. :huh:

 

[Hopeful]

<_< -----Sorry, my mistake. :huh:

I understand...You are probably getting too much sun!

 

[eolesen]

At one point, we proposed a minimum time off the clock be built into the CS policy, and got a lot of pushback on it from the line. Apparently, the right to trade shifts was seen as more important than the danger posed by the guy working his second or third day of doubles.

The idea was eventually killed by the fact that it was unfair to punish the guy doing doubles when there was no similar way to restrict someone from pulling just as long of a duty day by working a second job.

Sorry Bob, none of us, whether we turn a wrench, load a bag, or write tickets can go out for lunch and tip a few martinis. I don't know where that idea even came from. Guess what, there are several of us with "safety sensitive" jobs in all work groups and we too are subjuect to that same random testing.

Not entirely true for the airport folks.... at least historically.

There used to be a bar next to JFK called The Owl (they had good pizza, and it was used for the inside shots of the bar scenes between Martin and Charlie Sheen in "Wall Street"). Somehow, they managed to have a 817-632-xxxx (airport exchange) number installed. According to the guys who were supervisors during the 80's, it wasn't unheard of for someone to take their "lunch" at the Owl, still able to monitor the radio, and also be able to call someone back as a single ring (external calls were double ring) if needed.

Likewise at ORD with the Korner House (good bar food and well within the range of the trunk line radios). Someone working at the hangar could get to and from the K house faster than they could the terminal...

I agree that the random testing aspect makes it less likely that someone would go tip back a few adult beverages during a break, but the capability to do is still there for someone who pays to park in the public lot at the terminal or who works at the hangar.

 

[AANOTOK]

From the way this airline is ran, it looks as though the decision makers have access right in their offices and take advantage of it. Including the BOD.
Problem is though, they didn't store enough Sake!

 

[eolesen]

Quite the opposite... AA's HDQ and the TWU ATD offices are in the middle of a dry zone (Texas has more blue laws than anywhere else I've lived...).

I've always been of the opinion that the decision makers (be it corporate bosses or union bosses) would learn quite a bit by showing up in places like the Korner House and The Owl. If nothing else, they'd probably gain a little more credibility and maybe some respect...