TWU negotiations.........what?

[MTheory]

Not an especially fair comparison (even if we accept your figures) since CO has been through bankruptcy twice and has shed liabilities and reduced costs through those trips down Chapter 11 Lane. That's the main reason AA has such trouble competing: everyone else has been down the BK road, and lower costs mean lower fares.

Actualy, It is a very fair comparison.

CAL went through BK twice as you say. Once in 1983 and again they emerged from BK in 1993. The last BK was primarily a result of Frank Lorenzo's pre-occupation with EAL, a highly leveraged merger with People Express, and high oil prices due to the first Gulf War.

1993 was 16 years ago, and the benefits that CAL derived from that BK are no longer in play.

CAL and AMR both have very similar fleet types. They both have defined pension plans. They are both unionized.
CAL serves 265 destinations, AMR 157.
CAL fleet count 343 (mainline), AMR 603 (mainline)

One thing that CAL had that AMR did not was the leadership of Gordon Bethune, after the BK in 1993.

Clearly all things being equal, the only difference betwen AMR and CAL is the management.

The figures posted on the pay scales are correct.

 

[Bob Owens]

Not an especially fair comparison (even if we accept your figures) since CO has been through bankruptcy twice and has shed liabilities and reduced costs through those trips down Chapter 11 Lane. That's the main reason AA has such trouble competing: everyone else has been down the BK road, and lower costs mean lower fares.

So are you saying that we would have been better off by having AA go BK?

Credit is a big component in this industry, wouldnt a company that went BK pay more for credit, pay more for fuel (unable to hedge)etc?

MTheory is correct, the last BK was a long time ago and its a more than fair comparasion (on our part) because CAL is the company that AA chose to compare ourselves with.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

The TWU has made a point that they want to organize. I think organizing is always a good idea. The problem I see is that trying to recruit workers into the TWU seems like something is wrong. What attracts workers to join a union is superior pay and benefits and that is the bottom line. Workers will seek out the jobs and the union that represents them if the pay and benefits are industry leading. The question is "will our negotiations in the ATD give organizers the power to attract new members"?

 

[The Goose]

The TWU has made a point that they want to organize. I think organizing is always a good idea. The problem I see is that trying to recruit workers into the TWU seems like something is wrong. What attracts workers to join a union is superior pay and benefits and that is the bottom line. Workers will seek out the jobs and the union that represents them if the pay and benefits are industry leading. The question is "will our negotiations in the ATD give organizers the power to attract new members"?

You used to have an answer to this very question Chuck.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

You used to have an answer to this very question Chuck.

I am only trying to point out the obvious to the people who want to organize within this organization. Why waste time and money organizing if they keep supporting concessionary contracts.
We are such a splintered group it is difficult for me to understand unity from within, on any level.

 

[DallasConehead]

Fleet Committee Update - 10/28/09
By: tmackOn: 10/28/2009 20:32:54In: Fleet Committee Updates
The TWU Fleet Service Negotiation Committee, along with the Flight School Instructors and Simulator Technicians Committee met with the company on Tuesday, October 27 in Dallas, Texas.
A 3rd quarter financial update was presented to the Committee by AA's VP and Controller of Finance, Brian McMenamy. The Committee received answers to a wide variety of questions ranging from fuel hedges, debt payments, pension funding, overall financial health, and future economic forecasts for the company.

Afterwards, the company negotiators referenced the materials covered in the financial update and did not offer any new proposals for contract discussions at this session. In response, the TWU Fleet Committee raised appropriate concerns with Mediator Brown. The session concluded as the mediator has tentatively scheduled our next session on February 2, 2010.

I strongly suspect the outcome of the November meeting with M&R will be the same. I'm thinking Browns kids are going to Yale at no cost to him.

 

[AANOTOK]

In response, the TWU Fleet Committee raised appropriate concerns with Mediator Brown.

It's my understanding that this is very debatable.

Negotiations every three to four months should be totally unacceptable,
regardless what Terri Brown says.

How does the TWU suggest we as the membership show our dissatisfaction
with the pace of the negotiations?

THEY DON'T, HANG IN THERE BROTHER!! :angry:

 

[Bob Owens]

Fleet Committee Update - 10/28/09
By: tmackOn: 10/28/2009 20:32:54In: Fleet Committee Updates
The TWU Fleet Service Negotiation Committee, along with the Flight School Instructors and Simulator Technicians Committee met with the company on Tuesday, October 27 in Dallas, Texas.
A 3rd quarter financial update was presented to the Committee by AA's VP and Controller of Finance, Brian McMenamy. The Committee received answers to a wide variety of questions ranging from fuel hedges, debt payments, pension funding, overall financial health, and future economic forecasts for the company.

Afterwards, the company negotiators referenced the materials covered in the financial update and did not offer any new proposals for contract discussions at this session. In response, the TWU Fleet Committee raised appropriate concerns with Mediator Brown. The session concluded as the mediator has tentatively scheduled our next session on February 2, 2010.

I strongly suspect the outcome of the November meeting with M&R will be the same. I'm thinking Browns kids are going to Yale at no cost to him.

Brown is a her and M&R have a different mediator.

 

[DallasConehead]

Brown is a her and M&R have a different mediator.

Thanks for the correction Bob.

If memory serves me correctly, in the summer, Mediator Brown pushed the next session for T3 out to October, shortly after that Mediator Kane did the same for T1&2, setting up the session for the upcoming Nov 9? Correct me if I'm incorrect but it seems to me as though Kane and Brown are giving the company unlimited oppurtunity to await the coming turn around of the economy. Is there some reason we should expect something different this time around?

My prediction for 11/9 is and I hope I'm wrong, the company will come in with their "financials" everyone will have a nice chat, a few questions from the union boys, Kane will push it out to March, the union will object,(not so strongly), end of the show and head to the house. Status quo.

Is there some other outcome based on first hand knowledge to lead me to believe differently?

 

[Bob Owens]

I would be shocked and pleased if the company did that.

As far as negotiations being pushed back to March, thats a better option than being tied to yet another conecssionary contract till 2011. If we agree to this the company will never bring us up to industry standards, why would they? The "make em wait then give them nothing" strategy is working for them. They have us looking at their expenses challenges and costs while ignoring the fact that the rest of the industry faces the same challenges and some of them already pay their workers more. Instead of focusing on the challenges we face trying to get by with the 40% reduction in real wages that we've suffered though over the last six years we are told how much fuel went up and how much it costs the company. We are trying to price ourselves for third party work when the company really isnt insterested in that work, just the labor rates.

CAL has been in Negotiations for a while, their contract became amendable Jan 1 2009. The curent company (CAL) offer is better than what we, the union, have on the table right now.

By Jan 1, 2010, eight weeks from now, pretty much the whole industry (AMT wise) will be in negotiations.

UAL has the IBT, this will be their first negotiations at UAL, they havent been able to restore the jobs so my bet is they will mirror CAL in their proposal. They will go for the money, and get it. They will move ahead of us.

Delta will raise wages to fend off the possiblity of an organizing drive, they will move ahead of us.

The rest will likley do the same.

I think CAL will do like SWA and come to a quick agreement. I've heard rumors that the mechanics at CAL are not happy with the company proposal and the feeling is affecting their operations.

Why not wait for CAL? They were basically asking for SWa wages, at our best we were asking for $5less.

If we agree to this by 2011 we will be dead last in the industry.

Why agree to be dead last? Is that our payback for saving the company from bankruptcy? Do you want to work for an airline at MRO wages? I dont.

 

[Rogallo]

Do you want to work for an airline at MRO wages? I dont.

And I won't.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

So are you saying that we would have been better off by having AA go BK?

Credit is a big component in this industry, wouldnt a company that went BK pay more for credit, pay more for fuel (unable to hedge)etc?

MTheory is correct, the last BK was a long time ago and its a more than fair comparasion (on our part) because CAL is the company that AA chose to compare ourselves with.

I agree that credit is a big component in the airline industry. So why are AA's big three unions trying to push wages scales up to the point where BK becomes inevitable?

 

[Bob Owens]

I agree that credit is a big component in the airline industry. So why are AA's big three unions trying to push wages scales up to the point where BK becomes inevitable?

Over the last six years my debt load has increased by around $10k per year. You see many of my costs are fixed as well. Unlike Corporations I dont have the luxury of write offs such as special items, goodwill or the depreciation of my name as my debt climbs higher and higher, I cant even write off my consumer debt. My property taxes are non-negotiable and have increased every year, my electric bills despite my efforts to conserve, what I pay for food, fuel, and my premiums that I pay to AA for Medical coverage have all increased dramatically, along with pretty much everything else, except of course my pay. So you come here and ask why we are being so selfish and trying to push our wages back up? Because if we dont we are all headed towards personal bankruptcy. I took a $20,000 paycut but my deficit to date averaged only $10k(but its climbing every year), so I've cut pretty much all I can, I guess maybe, according to you I should make some hard business choices and throw my 10 year old son to the curb since he is the least senior. That would probably take care of most of the $10k deficit, if not I have two other kids, but I dont think my wife (or the state) would go for that. Companies are allowed to do that but families arent, thats one important distinction between a company and a family for those who get the two confused.

AA has lost money the last two years, just as their contracts became amendable with their unions, wow, what a coincidence!!! I've been losing money for six consecutive years. I cant do it anymore. If they really cant pay us then let them go bankrupt and let someone who knows how to run a business pick up the market share that AA had and make a go of it. I didnt start my career at AA, maybe I wont end it here either, my toolbox has wheels and I've used them before.

I dont know how to say this any clearer than this ' I DO NOT CARE ABOUT AA'S FINANCIAL PROBLEMS ANYMORE, I WANT MY MONEY OR I WOULD RATHER SEE THEM GO AWAY SO THOSE CARRIERS THAT KNOW HOW TO RUN A BUSINESS AND PAY THEIR WORKERS WILL HAVE ROOM TO EXPAND AND HIRE US.

 

[lineguy43]

I agree that credit is a big component in the airline industry. So why are AA's big three unions trying to push wages scales up to the point where BK becomes inevitable?

Isn't it funny Bob how all the frequent flyers and union haters want you to again sacrifice your wages so they can get a better ticket price. I have not only been where you are but lost my career all together with the 2005 NW strike. The execs even at NW when they were crying poverty took from us and gave themselves extravengant bonuses. No sir there comes a time when enough is enough. The airlines would love us to work for third world wages while lining their pockets with millions..

 

[Deleted member 14439]

AS always you are spot on Bob. I`m tired of hearing about there financial woes. We all have financial woe stories to tell. Here at AFW they have been putting up 42 inch monitors all over the place! This to diplay charts and graphs that the average AMT does not give a hoot about. Yesterday the company passed out 2010 pocket calenders. On the second page it listed 23 holdays! Yes 23 holidays that various people or orginizations recognized. Boy I was seeing red after that. All it did was serve to remind me of our holidays lost. I don`t care for all 23 holidays but jeez!