TWU negotiations.........what?
- Thread starter Chuck Schalk
- Start date
Yeah, those numbers looked way out of whack to me too, so I'm not surprised to see that comment.
You know, in a truly free marketplace (free of this union-imposed seniority system bs) we could just go over to another company and take a job with pay matching our experience. That's how things work in the normal world (at least that's what my wife tells me :blink: )
You know, in a truly free marketplace (free of this union-imposed seniority system bs) we could just go over to another company and take a job with pay matching our experience. That's how things work in the normal world (at least that's what my wife tells me :blink: )
AANOTOK
Veteran
- Oct 10, 2009
- 4,627
- 2,242
Frontline,
While I'm a member of a union, there are many, many things I don't like about them. BUT, to say the seniority system is bs is well, bs. As I have seen in the corporate world a ton of times, the senior guy being pushed out for the younger less expensive guy. Doesn't matter if he is as qualified or not, they throw the old guy out to save a buck. I have a real problem with this.
While I'm a member of a union, there are many, many things I don't like about them. BUT, to say the seniority system is bs is well, bs. As I have seen in the corporate world a ton of times, the senior guy being pushed out for the younger less expensive guy. Doesn't matter if he is as qualified or not, they throw the old guy out to save a buck. I have a real problem with this.
T
The Goose
Guest
There supposedly are laws in place to address this abuse of people but never having a need to use them and not being familiar with them anyway I suspect the standard of proof is horribly skewed in favor of the employer.
The SWA numbers are from their current contract, the CAL numbers are from the IBT communication to their members a week or so ago and the AA numbers are based on the TWU June proposal. Which airline are you from?
Might be another TWU or Company man. The TWU will go to all lengths to protect their cozy
lifestyle.
My friend in Miami told me that Woodward is telling his guys on the floor that AA will be going Bankrupt soon and we will have a contract next year. Some one needs to contact the boys in Miami and get them up to speed on current events. I checked their local website and it is pathetic. No useful info. They are keeping the boys in the dark. We need to get Miami on board soon.
I doubt that Todd knows more about AA's finances than Citibank and all the others who've thown billion$ into AA over the last few weeks.
Would you buy a billion dollars worth of AAdvantage miles if you thought AA was going BK?
As I've stated before my concern is that the company will say yes to the June proposal and we will be stuck on the bottom. Once there that will become the new norm and we will never leave it. At one time we were told that we had to compete with SWA, when they surpassed us in pay then we were told we couldnt compare ourselves to them because they dont do OH, they never did but that didnt seem to matter. Now, in part thanks to the OSM program, nobody does their heavy OH in house, except AA, so once its established that we are bottom paid in the airline industry we are going to be told (by our own union) that we cant compare ourselves to any other airline, we have to compete with MROs. From a negotiations standpoint we are being removed from the airline industry.
The June propsal was in response to the company's claim that come 2012 they would not have enough volume of work to maintain the same headcount and that if they didnt find third party work to fill in "the white spaces" that we would lose 600 to 800 jobs (Our current attrition rate is 300 to 400 a year systemwide so we would would need to hire 900 to 1200 more new mechanics to maintain headcount anyway, we are selling out to create jobs for 600 to 800 people who haven't even appeared at AA yet). Basically we are already negotiating as an MRO instead of an airline. If you read the TWUs June statement about addressing the "white spaces" in overhaul its pretty clear, Line maintenance, didnt even make a showing in the document.
IMO AA really isnt serious about doing 3P work as a mainstay of their business, they use it as filler for the voids in our own work, they arent about to go out and hire workers to do 3P work. Right now they are using the 3P work as a negotiating ploy to get it into our minds that we have to compete with TIMCO and AAR instead of looking at SWA and UPS mechanics rates. Instead of having us leapfrog off the latest and greatest contract in the airline industry , as has been the traditional approach of organized labor, they simply changed the venue, we now have to compete as an MRO. Its a message that our union has bought into, thats why our initial table position didnt even match SWA or UPS. Basically line maintenace, the lowest cost line maintenance at that, will be the throw in so AA will keep all their OH in house. AA will be able to maintain in house Line maintenance at MRO rates and they can claim that they are the highest paid MRO, other carriers line mechanics will continue to be drawn into this downward trend because they have to compete with AA and since AA line maintenance costs will be determined by MRO rates instead of airline rates, their wages will be held back by us.
The only recourse that line maintenance has is to affect the performance to the point that the airlines realize that low paid mechanics results in cancelled trips, heavy cancellations, high turnover or an inability to staff their stations. The cost advantage that AA gets by using a the larger based group (that it convinced must compete with MROs)to impose low wages on the smaller group, that despite its size has more of an impact on revenues, must be negated by our actions. Over the last few weeks I've been told by two different people who are currently in the International that 562 is a "small Local", in other words inconsequential, however despite its small size it handles about 10% of AA's total flights and an even greater percentage of the revenue stream. This small Local handles more flights and more revenue in a day than the largest local does in a week. Our strength doesnt lie with the ballott, it lies with our pens and wrenches. Basically we are on our own, if the company continues to get what it wants you will never get what you need. They write the books, follow them step by step, reference by reference. Those books, compared to the bluebook, are our most powerful allies.
TIME FOR CHANGE
Veteran
http://www.aanegotiations.com/forTheRecord.asp
I could not make it past the first couple of paragraphs after Brundage started his remarks about payscale. Its OK for us to be compensated but not OK for the Union employees to be compensated. He also left out the part about our constant increase in medical premiums , co-pays , and prefunding all which equates to a pay cut. This guy is one clueless idiot for lack of a better description. But dont worry Jeff ol boy I will keep your remarks in mind everytime that plane is on a delay for some sort of mechanical reason. Your words will inspire me to do the right thing. GFY Jeff :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:
I could not make it past the first couple of paragraphs after Brundage started his remarks about payscale. Its OK for us to be compensated but not OK for the Union employees to be compensated. He also left out the part about our constant increase in medical premiums , co-pays , and prefunding all which equates to a pay cut. This guy is one clueless idiot for lack of a better description. But dont worry Jeff ol boy I will keep your remarks in mind everytime that plane is on a delay for some sort of mechanical reason. Your words will inspire me to do the right thing. GFY Jeff :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:
Tex-Mech
Veteran
But fear not...Ole Jeff was once FAA chief/ECLAT's Randy Babbitt's right hand man at ALPA. He helped ram the 16 year contract down the Eagle pilots throat, like the good union man he was pretending to be. Soon after, he got his current job.
Kev3188
Veteran
Brundage to unions: "Drop dead."
"That alone is critical to developing a working relationship."Translation: "Let me tell you about my problems but I could care less about yours".
And that obligation – necessary to getting a thoughtful and workable contract – is one of the reasons airline labor negotiations take as long as they do.
Hmm, when they were using BK as levergae to get concessions it didnt take them long.
And in my view, we’d be irresponsible if we failed to use negotiations to discuss where and how the airline industry has changed, and the role labor plays in helping the company we all rely upon succeed for the long term.
How does he define success? My guess is billions in bonuses for the likes of him and personal bankruptcy for us.
We can’t turn a blind eye, ignore new realities and keep signing new contracts with provisions that don’t take into account changes in play since the old contracts were inked.
You mean like the fact that headcount was reduced by a third and revenues increased by nearly $7 billion?
One of those new realities is pay. It’s not a popular thing to say around here, but American already pays union employees at or near the top of the market across the company.
Mechanics are #5 of eight legacy carriers. Thats not the top.
Now there was a time when unions demanded, and airlines granted, major pay gains with every contract.
What time was that? I missed it, since the 80s unions haven't even kept pace with inflation, our real pay is 40% less than it was in 2002.
But that’s not the case today, when shrinking revenues and restructuring have depressed wage rates across the industry.
Shrinking revenues? Revenues increased by nearly $7billion since the last contract was inked. Where does this guy get this stuff?
We’ve done a few things differently this time around. We built this website, for one, to make it easier for us to be open and transparent about the thinking behind our proposals.
Its a cheaper more effective way to spead lies and propaganda is more like it.
Consider, for example, that American outsources only 12 percent of our maintenance work, compared to an industry average of more than 50 percent. The fact that many of our competitors already use lower-cost, overseas labor gives us a competitive cost disadvantage from go. American is committed to keeping the majority of our maintenance work in-house. But to do so maybe we need to rethink the rigid rules and job classifications in the current contract for maintenance and related employees that limit our flexibility and ability to tap this workforce in the most strategic, efficient way.
Well "the jury is still out on that", according Gerald Arpey. UAL saw their maintenance costs go up as they outsourced, sure the labor costs went down but maintenance went up. Not only that but I've worked for outfits that outsource their OH work, the planes usually came back clean with a new paint job and a huge amount of mechanical problems, it would take us weeks to clear them up, when our planes come out of our "in house" OH they are like new, there has to be a cost savings associated with that. AA has been getting the best bargain in the industry for years.
And consider, for just one more example, that American is one of only two major airlines that provides a defined benefit pension plan for employees, even as companies in nearly every American industry have shifted to 401(k)-style plans that are more sustainable over the long run.
Yes and the other one provides a match to the 401k as well.
And that’s if they provide retirement benefits at all. We’re committed to keeping this program for our current employees, but have proposed giving our current employees choices and putting new employees into 401(k) plans that will allow us to be more competitive in the market. All the while keeping our retirement commitments to all the employees vested in the current pension plans.
SWA, the other carrier that didnt go BK provides an 8 1/4% match on 100% of earnings. Is AA willing to match that? AA also enjoys one of the lowest pension cost per capita.
Here’s the reality: There is no pot of gold out there that’s going to fund the sizeable pay increases, benefit enhancements and job protections the unions are seeking. We can’t look back ten years to structure a contract that will take us into the next decade. And we can’t agree to proposals that ramp up costs without finding ways to pay those bills.
Maybe there isnt a pot of Gold but there is a $20plus billion dollar river of cash that flows though this company, its a river thats fed with our sweat and toil and its a river that we have the ability to stop.
Maintenance did provide ways to pay the bills but the company just stuck it in their pockets and refused to share.
But we can use the negotiations process to identify ways to improve productivity and run a better operation so that we can raise or maintain pay and benefits for American’s employees.
Been there done that but you guys lied. Now that we are at bottom wagse you want to take your time sit back and discuss things to death as you save millions of dollars a week in wages that should be going to us.
In my mind, negotiating a smart contract means finding ways that truly serve the interests of both sides by recognizing new realities and coming up with better ways to do business focused on what should be the real end goal: helping American succeed.
Succeed at what?
Before we can focus on any "end goal" we have the immediate situation of paying bills and taking care of our families. Why should we believe that continued sacifices won't be followed by demands for more and more sacrifices? What has the company done with the billions we already gave ? They've squandered it. Before we can trust the company again they have to make good on the promisese they've already broken.
And that obligation – necessary to getting a thoughtful and workable contract – is one of the reasons airline labor negotiations take as long as they do.
Hmm, when they were using BK as levergae to get concessions it didnt take them long.
And in my view, we’d be irresponsible if we failed to use negotiations to discuss where and how the airline industry has changed, and the role labor plays in helping the company we all rely upon succeed for the long term.
How does he define success? My guess is billions in bonuses for the likes of him and personal bankruptcy for us.
We can’t turn a blind eye, ignore new realities and keep signing new contracts with provisions that don’t take into account changes in play since the old contracts were inked.
You mean like the fact that headcount was reduced by a third and revenues increased by nearly $7 billion?
One of those new realities is pay. It’s not a popular thing to say around here, but American already pays union employees at or near the top of the market across the company.
Mechanics are #5 of eight legacy carriers. Thats not the top.
Now there was a time when unions demanded, and airlines granted, major pay gains with every contract.
What time was that? I missed it, since the 80s unions haven't even kept pace with inflation, our real pay is 40% less than it was in 2002.
But that’s not the case today, when shrinking revenues and restructuring have depressed wage rates across the industry.
Shrinking revenues? Revenues increased by nearly $7billion since the last contract was inked. Where does this guy get this stuff?
We’ve done a few things differently this time around. We built this website, for one, to make it easier for us to be open and transparent about the thinking behind our proposals.
Its a cheaper more effective way to spead lies and propaganda is more like it.
Consider, for example, that American outsources only 12 percent of our maintenance work, compared to an industry average of more than 50 percent. The fact that many of our competitors already use lower-cost, overseas labor gives us a competitive cost disadvantage from go. American is committed to keeping the majority of our maintenance work in-house. But to do so maybe we need to rethink the rigid rules and job classifications in the current contract for maintenance and related employees that limit our flexibility and ability to tap this workforce in the most strategic, efficient way.
Well "the jury is still out on that", according Gerald Arpey. UAL saw their maintenance costs go up as they outsourced, sure the labor costs went down but maintenance went up. Not only that but I've worked for outfits that outsource their OH work, the planes usually came back clean with a new paint job and a huge amount of mechanical problems, it would take us weeks to clear them up, when our planes come out of our "in house" OH they are like new, there has to be a cost savings associated with that. AA has been getting the best bargain in the industry for years.
And consider, for just one more example, that American is one of only two major airlines that provides a defined benefit pension plan for employees, even as companies in nearly every American industry have shifted to 401(k)-style plans that are more sustainable over the long run.
Yes and the other one provides a match to the 401k as well.
And that’s if they provide retirement benefits at all. We’re committed to keeping this program for our current employees, but have proposed giving our current employees choices and putting new employees into 401(k) plans that will allow us to be more competitive in the market. All the while keeping our retirement commitments to all the employees vested in the current pension plans.
SWA, the other carrier that didnt go BK provides an 8 1/4% match on 100% of earnings. Is AA willing to match that? AA also enjoys one of the lowest pension cost per capita.
Here’s the reality: There is no pot of gold out there that’s going to fund the sizeable pay increases, benefit enhancements and job protections the unions are seeking. We can’t look back ten years to structure a contract that will take us into the next decade. And we can’t agree to proposals that ramp up costs without finding ways to pay those bills.
Maybe there isnt a pot of Gold but there is a $20plus billion dollar river of cash that flows though this company, its a river thats fed with our sweat and toil and its a river that we have the ability to stop.
Maintenance did provide ways to pay the bills but the company just stuck it in their pockets and refused to share.
But we can use the negotiations process to identify ways to improve productivity and run a better operation so that we can raise or maintain pay and benefits for American’s employees.
Been there done that but you guys lied. Now that we are at bottom wagse you want to take your time sit back and discuss things to death as you save millions of dollars a week in wages that should be going to us.
In my mind, negotiating a smart contract means finding ways that truly serve the interests of both sides by recognizing new realities and coming up with better ways to do business focused on what should be the real end goal: helping American succeed.
Succeed at what?
Before we can focus on any "end goal" we have the immediate situation of paying bills and taking care of our families. Why should we believe that continued sacifices won't be followed by demands for more and more sacrifices? What has the company done with the billions we already gave ? They've squandered it. Before we can trust the company again they have to make good on the promisese they've already broken.
Hackman
Veteran
- Sep 30, 2003
- 3,997
- 892
- Banned
- #1,333
I thought Captain Randy Babbit was the former APA advisor that got them fined $50 Million for the "illegal" APA job action? He also had a run with the ALPA while Jeffy was a union sellout? No surprise. Funny how these sellouts get "installed" into positions at the FAA or the airline they assisted in screwing their employees. I guess the twu isn't the only union with sellouts, just more of them.
Ol' Jeffy can shove his little sniveling blurb about how AA can't afford to give back to the employees that saved this airline. What happened to the "Shared Sacrifice? Say....was that just a lie? No kidding? I never would have guessed that coming from Centerpork.
It rings very hollow when management like Jeffy can cram $300 million in bone-us-es in their greedy pockets in last few years and then claim "Our cup runnith dry"....at least for the workers. His BS propAAganda statement is so full of lies that a case of Pepto couldn't stop the reading nausia. Top union pay at AA Jeffy? Since when???? Nice try but you lie.
The sad thing....the twu company union's Jimmy Do-little will probably put out a statement saying the same thing soon.....along with a good dose of "Scary twu tactics" and the same "we'll get 'em next time". Just in time for Holloweeny.
No more concessions!!!!
It's time to pay up.....or fire up the bankruptcy court!!!!
JFK Fleet Service
Veteran
Hackman said:
You do of course realize the bankruptcy court 'option' would probably entail an even greater cut in pay and benefits,concessions writ large if you will...
Should it come to bankruptcy, you know damn well the TWU will sacrifice everything in order to maintain the income from dues.
Ed Norton
Veteran
Was ist loss?
What's with the SS emblem? :huh:
1st SS Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler
