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TWU negotiations.........what?

That's your opinion but you did say that there was more money on the table. So did Schiable, MacTiernan, Mishak, Ruiz, Pike, and a multitude of others. Well where is this extra money we were supposed to get. Vote no until we get an acceptable deal? Now we will not be accepting any deal, its about to get forced on us and its worse than the TA. Why can't you understand that? Its because you can't deliver so you keep trying to explain and dodge the fact that you gave bad advice.

So again you say don't worry guys, you'll be back working by 2018. Unfortunately it will be at wages and terms set by a judge that are far inferior to the TA. That sounds just like the TWU saying, "Don't worry brother, we'll get'em next time." The only thing is that the TWU was recommending voting in $37/hour and keeping overhaul and renegotiating later.

There is plenty of money, well over $4 billion in cash and another $24 billion a year coming in, the question is what are we willing to do to get our share. Just because they filed BK that doesnt mean the money is not there, remember there is no means test for corporations in BK, do you believe they are broke? Boeing and Airbus are ramping up to build a lot of planes, do you think they would do that if they were not going to get paid? Sure BK presents a few more obsticles and risks but they arent insurmountable.

The Judge does not set wages or terms, but you knew that didnt you? He either rejects the deal or he doesnt. Why are you doing the companies bidding and spreading things that are not true? "Blame the Judge not the company "? If he throws out the contracts the company can impose new terms and we could immediately ask for release (we should have asked back in 2010) citing the fact that we have been in negotiations for over 4 years, rejected a TA, rejected a last offer or a subsequent TA and the company has chosen to impose new terms. If they made up some new reason to deny us then we should Wildcat. How do you think workers made gains in the past? Do you think they were all rich and "could afford" to go on strike or participate in "illegal" activities? Do you think that things got better because Labor supported the Democrats? It was the fact that enforcing those laws were causing more disruptions than they were designed to prevent that made them change the laws in the first place, the RLA was put together by the Railroads and the Unions under the direction of the government, well they altered things just enough to go back to their old ways of using the courts to do managements bidding, and if we ever want a fair shake we have to do what was done before., what drove the changes. You may want to sit on the sidelines and wait for another union to do it but the fact is we are at the bottom, and if we let the company get away with what they want the seperation between us and the rest of the industry will be permanent, we will always be at the bottom.

Lets say we dont fight, and we roll over to "save jobs". AA will increase capacity, lower prices and force competitors to lower their costs by going after workers wages as well, once they do AA will simply threaten to file once again, and you will be here saying that we need to give even more because we have so many mechanics, that AA cant pay us what competitors pay because we have so many mechanics, How do I know you will say that? because didnt you say the pretty much the same thing in 2003 that you are saying now? Give industry leading concessions to save jobs.

in other words arent you saying that because we have so many mechanics we have no leverage to increase wages up to what competitors pay then when the company makes the threat that if we dont agree to more cuts in wages and benefits that they will outsource jobs you spin around and say; "if we lose those thousands of jobs we will lose leverage'.Lose leverage for what? To get bottom of the industry pay? I think you may be a little schizophrenic, on the one hand you say that UPS mechanics have the leverage to get $50/hr and industry leading benefits because there are so few of them and they outsource all their heavy stuff ,then you say that if we did the same thing that we would lose leverage, so I have to wonder who are you saying would lose leverege, us or the company? Does having more workers provide you more leverage to get industry leading pay and benefits or does it provide the company leverge to keep wages low?
 
That's because they didn't. The retiree medical stayed intact for those over 50, a bridge for those from 45 to 50, and increased SK bank for the retiree medical purchase at active rates. The pension stayed intact for incumbent members with a 401k plan DC plan for new hires. Your mistake, listening to the rhetoric and not reading the proposal yourself.

See that's the thing about BK, you don't get what's fair you get what they can prove they need. Industry standard is about 50% outsourcing and $36 to $37 hourly but the guiding principle in BK isn't industry standard, it is what gets the creditors paid back on their loans. When we voted no and rolled the dice on AA possibly going to BK we took the chance it could get worse. Well, it did. The TWU reps that knew this and voted to bring back the TA knew that the odds were not in our favor and getting paid industry standard wages with below industry average outsourcing sounded like the better bet. In retrospect, that advice seems even more prudent. Too late now though.
No your mistake......EVERYBODY DID READ IT !!! If ever a T/A could be writen to not appeal to anyone the TWU succeeded.
 
There is plenty of money, well over $4 billion in cash and another $24 billion a year coming in, the question is what are we willing to do to get our share. Just because they filed BK that doesnt mean the money is not there, remember there is no means test for corporations in BK, do you believe they are broke? Boeing and Airbus are ramping up to build a lot of planes, do you think they would do that if they were not going to get paid? Sure BK presents a few more obsticles and risks but they arent insurmountable.

The Judge does not set wages or terms, but you knew that didnt you? He either rejects the deal or he doesnt. Why are you doing the companies bidding and spreading things that are not true? "Blame the Judge not the company "? If he throws out the contracts the company can impose new terms and we could immediately ask for release (we should have asked back in 2010) citing the fact that we have been in negotiations for over 4 years, rejected a TA, rejected a last offer or a subsequent TA and the company has chosen to impose new terms. If they made up some new reason to deny us then we should Wildcat. How do you think workers made gains in the past? Do you think they were all rich and "could afford" to go on strike or participate in "illegal" activities? Do you think that things got better because Labor supported the Democrats? It was the fact that enforcing those laws were causing more disruptions than they were designed to prevent that made them change the laws in the first place, the RLA was put together by the Railroads and the Unions under the direction of the government, well they altered things just enough to go back to their old ways of using the courts to do managements bidding, and if we ever want a fair shake we have to do what was done before., what drove the changes. You may want to sit on the sidelines and wait for another union to do it but the fact is we are at the bottom, and if we let the company get away with what they want the seperation between us and the rest of the industry will be permanent, we will always be at the bottom.

Lets say we dont fight, and we roll over to "save jobs". AA will increase capacity, lower prices and force competitors to lower their costs by going after workers wages as well, once they do AA will simply threaten to file once again, and you will be here saying that we need to give even more because we have so many mechanics, that AA cant pay us what competitors pay because we have so many mechanics, How do I know you will say that? because didnt you say the pretty much the same thing in 2003 that you are saying now? Give industry leading concessions to save jobs.

in other words arent you saying that because we have so many mechanics we have no leverage to increase wages up to what competitors pay then when the company makes the threat that if we dont agree to more cuts in wages and benefits that they will outsource jobs you spin around and say; "if we lose those thousands of jobs we will lose leverage'.Lose leverage for what? To get bottom of the industry pay? I think you may be a little schizophrenic, on the one hand you say that UPS mechanics have the leverage to get $50/hr and industry leading benefits because there are so few of them and they outsource all their heavy stuff ,then you say that if we did the same thing that we would lose leverage, so I have to wonder who are you saying would lose leverege, us or the company? Does having more workers provide you more leverage to get industry leading pay and benefits or does it provide the company leverge to keep wages low?

$4B in cash is for navigating restructuring and are you that shortsighted? Do you spend every dime you have in the bank for today and forget about tomorrow? No wonder you have been out played by AA. They aren't broke, they have an unsustainable cost structure and they are reorganizing. You just don't get it.

I never said the judge sets terms, he rules on motions placed before him. And he will rule on the ones that shred our wages, benefits, and work rules. Plain and simple.

You can't just file BK anytime you want. It may seem that way to you but I forgot, your an award winning BK expert, labor expert, and labor law expert.

Pay is driving by overall value provided. WN, UPS, and FDX AMTs have much better work rules and procedures than us. They also have way better management. Right now AA is managing to the lowest common denominator operationally. Because they can't figure out how to manage AA right, they cut pay and benefits as well as outsource work they can't figure out how to run efficiently. Write a contract that has a clause in it holding bad management accountable.

No I didn't say any of that. See that's the problem with you, the issues are complex and you are one-dimensional. This isn't the 1950s with all the labor protections and a highly regulated industry. The new world you are bargaining in favors less financial regulation and weaker labor laws. The perceived leverage you thought you had was never there anymore. Release is an even worse option now but you stick to your guns. Meanwhile AA has gone nuclear and you have a pop gun.
 
No your mistake......EVERYBODY DID READ IT !!! If ever a T/A could be writen to not appeal to anyone the TWU succeeded.

And if you didn't like the TA, the next one is going to really kick you in your huevos. That is if we get to vote on it.

Keep voting no. They keep getting worse. Like Charlie Sheen says, "Winning!"
 
$4B in cash is for navigating restructuring and are you that shortsighted? Do you spend every dime you have in the bank for today and forget about tomorrow? No wonder you have been out played by AA. They aren't broke, they have an unsustainable cost structure and they are reorganizing. You just don't get it.

I never said the judge sets terms, he rules on motions placed before him. And he will rule on the ones that shred our wages, benefits, and work rules. Plain and simple.

You can't just file BK anytime you want. It may seem that way to you but I forgot, your an award winning BK expert, labor expert, and labor law expert.

Pay is driving by overall value provided. WN, UPS, and FDX AMTs have much better work rules and procedures than us. They also have way better management. Right now AA is managing to the lowest common denominator operationally. Because they can't figure out how to manage AA right, they cut pay and benefits as well as outsource work they can't figure out how to run efficiently. Write a contract that has a clause in it holding bad management accountable.

No I didn't say any of that. See that's the problem with you, the issues are complex and you are one-dimensional. This isn't the 1950s with all the labor protections and a highly regulated industry. The new world you are bargaining in favors less financial regulation and weaker labor laws. The perceived leverage you thought you had was never there anymore. Release is an even worse option now but you stick to your guns. Meanwhile AA has gone nuclear and you have a pop gun.
blah blah blah blahloney
 
So far, management hasn't attempted any retention bonus arrangements and I don't expect to see any. All is not lost, however - management will probably claim a substantial portion of the new stock for themselves - a situation not addressed by the 2005 bankruptcy law changes.
The Gloden parachutes are being packed as we speak !!!
 
And if you didn't like the TA, the next one is going to really kick you in your huevos. That is if we get to vote on it.

Keep voting no. They keep getting worse. Like Charlie Sheen says, "Winning!"
What are you talking about, there are 4000 no votes before voting begins....
 
$4B in cash is for navigating restructuring and are you that shortsighted? Do you spend every dime you have in the bank for today and forget about tomorrow? No wonder you have been out played by AA. They aren't broke, they have an unsustainable cost structure and they are reorganizing. You just don't get it.

I never said the judge sets terms, he rules on motions placed before him. And he will rule on the ones that shred our wages, benefits, and work rules. Plain and simple.

You can't just file BK anytime you want. It may seem that way to you but I forgot, your an award winning BK expert, labor expert, and labor law expert.

Pay is driving by overall value provided. WN, UPS, and FDX AMTs have much better work rules and procedures than us. They also have way better management. Right now AA is managing to the lowest common denominator operationally. Because they can't figure out how to manage AA right, they cut pay and benefits as well as outsource work they can't figure out how to run efficiently. Write a contract that has a clause in it holding bad management accountable.

No I didn't say any of that. See that's the problem with you, the issues are complex and you are one-dimensional. This isn't the 1950s with all the labor protections and a highly regulated industry. The new world you are bargaining in favors less financial regulation and weaker labor laws. The perceived leverage you thought you had was never there anymore. Release is an even worse option now but you stick to your guns. Meanwhile AA has gone nuclear and you have a pop gun.
Its 4.6 BIL and keeps on growing, surprise surprise !
 
The MRO management types at the DFW MRO show are excited about something. What is it? Who will get the AA contract. Bob which MRO is giving you a kick back for sending them all that overhaul work?

The Million $ Question
Posted by Lee Ann Tegtmeier at 4/5/2012 10:45 AM CDT
It's out there and everybody is talking about it here at MRO Americas in Dallas, but usually it's in hushed tones. So, what is that question you ask?

If Air Canada and American Airlines outsource all of their aircraft maintenance, where is it going to go? Who has capacity? In addition, if not all of the aircraft, what percentage and which ones?

Airlines are tightening their supplier agreements to ensure their aircraft get done and MROs are examining capacity availability. This is definitely something to watch.
 
And when you don't pay all your bills this is surprising how?

You are as uneducated about the process as Bob. Why am I not surprised about that.
Its a beautiful thing isn't it 4.6 BIL IN BANK And you plead POVERTY !!
Only in America
 
Its a beautiful thing isn't it 4.6 BIL IN BANK And you plead POVERTY !!
Only in America
AA's balance sheet shows $24.4 billion in assets, including the $4.6 billion in cash.

Problem is, AA's balance sheet also shows $32.3 billion in debts, liabilities and other obligations, for a negative net worth of almost $8 billion.

http://www.amrcaseinfo.com/pdflib/2071_15463.pdf

AA isn't pleading poverty, but it is certainly bankrupt.
 
Good point - I realize it's not much more than wishful thinking but good point regardless. 5 holidays is industry standard? What is the "standard" re: vacation and sick time? What is the middle-of-the-road pay scale?
Industry? Which one? Line or Overhaul? 3400 line mechanics that the other airlines have and 4900 licensed overhaul mechanics that they do not.
They are two seperate industries at all the other airlines except, Guess Which One..............
The inability of guys to see this and realize that until we can prove that AA's overhaul costs are comparable OVERALL to the overhaul costs of the others then it will be used against us.
Can you imagine the discussions in BK court if AA had outsourced it's overhaul 9 years ago? THEN you could compare us to the industry standard. Then you could talk about $37 an hour. Until then it's muddy waters and in BK court we know who will win.
 
Yes, just like the movie "Outsourced" . Now once those in management have completed their training, then reoutsource to the next lowest bidder.
 
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