TWU negotiations.........what?

[MCI transplant]

The more I think about it, Bob is right that you shouldn't keep offering concessions in lieu of headcount reductions. There comes a point when you cut pay and benefits enough that it isn't worth keeping the job. But again, that's my view as an outsider I don't have a dog in this fight.

Josh

<_< ------- That point has come and gone Josh. Remember these people are getting paid for the skills they poses, along with the responsibility that goes along with that! The liability they take on, that is mandated by law, will stay with them as long as the product they worked on still fly's!------- Now, you tell me! How much is that worth?

 

[AA89]

The more I think about it, Bob is right that you shouldn't keep offering concessions in lieu of headcount reductions. There comes a point when you cut pay and benefits enough that it isn't worth keeping the job. But again, that's my view as an outsider I don't have a dog in this fight.

Josh

In principle Bob is right and in the old days his way would work. I guess the debate is whether his tactics will work today with the RLA and BK laws working against labor. It appears that round 1 has been won by the company. If enough workers are fed up then we may gat a chance to test his way in round 2.

 

[eolesen]

Curious, do the Rail maintenance groups negotiate with their baggage handlers or Pullman.? If that is the correct term?

Pullman hasn't existed since Amtrak was created in 1971, if not earlier.

I wouldn't be looking to the rail unions for direction. You're dealing with a lot less competition -- if it can't go by truck, rail shippers are pretty much locked into whoever serves their property or port.

But, they've also been pretty weak at responding to outsourcing -- overhauls by Caterpillar subsidiaries, painting by contractors, and even things like line construction and wreck recovery being done by companies like Herzog and RJ Corman... most of which are non-union.

 

[Overspeed]

So one the one hand you say that we can't ask for anything because we have more mechanics than anyone else then you say that if we end up with less mechanics then we have less leverage, which is it?

Exactly what I said. The leverage (all the member we have now) that you thought you had is going to be diminished in strength. The NMB never let us use it anyway. And now after BK we will have less leverage.

 

[Overspeed]

They voted NO because the deal was unacceptable, and they need to keep voting NO until we get an acceptable deal.

I never claimed to be a tough guy, yea I may not lose my job if AA cuts 4000 heads because I have a lot of seniority but if AA did go belly up, with my name out there the odds that I would not be picked up by anotherr carrier because their HR departments would simply google my name. So I do have something at stake here more so than you but its a risk worth taking to me. By the way even the company admits that it would take well over a year to cut those heads, if they did. The fact is they treally cant cut as much as they put out there and they have said they want the "ability" to outsource. A while back one manager confided that he would like to contract out all of Title II but there really wasnt anyone out there he could, the fact is the few companys that handle such work in the Northeast pay their guys pretty much the same, all they would lose is the airline benefits and they would not save any money. Figure by the time they start cutting attrition will already be absorbing a lot of the loss, If their plan is to reduce the headcount by 4000 jobs and we lose 500 per year anyway then by 2018 3000 of the possible 4000 would have been recalled, just like we had 16000 in 2003 and now have 11000 with everyone having been offered recall, and most not taking it. So 5000 jobs are gone but nobody is still on layoff, nobody eneded up on a street corner with a tin cup in hand either, sure some struggled, but so are those of us who stayed.

That's your opinion but you did say that there was more money on the table. So did Schiable, MacTiernan, Mishak, Ruiz, Pike, and a multitude of others. Well where is this extra money we were supposed to get. Vote no until we get an acceptable deal? Now we will not be accepting any deal, its about to get forced on us and its worse than the TA. Why can't you understand that? Its because you can't deliver so you keep trying to explain and dodge the fact that you gave bad advice.

So again you say don't worry guys, you'll be back working by 2018. Unfortunately it will be at wages and terms set by a judge that are far inferior to the TA. That sounds just like the TWU saying, "Don't worry brother, we'll get'em next time." The only thing is that the TWU was recommending voting in $37/hour and keeping overhaul and renegotiating later.

 

[Mr Red]

That's your opinion but you did say that there was more money on the table. So did Schiable, MacTiernan, Mishak, Ruiz, Pike, and a multitude of others. Well where is this extra money we were supposed to get. Vote no until we get an acceptable deal? Now we will not be accepting any deal, its about to get forced on us and its worse than the TA. Why can't you understand that? Its because you can't deliver so you keep trying to explain and dodge the fact that you gave bad advice.

So again you say don't worry guys, you'll be back working by 2018. Unfortunately it will be at wages and terms set by a judge that are far inferior to the TA. That sounds just like the TWU saying, "Don't worry brother, we'll get'em next time." The only thing is that the TWU was recommending voting in $37/hour and keeping overhaul and renegotiating later.

I dont remember the TWU recommending to vote out pre funding or the pension. The company says they need to be at industry standards,if thats the case we should be getting a raise since we are at the bottom.

 

[Frank Szabo]

That's your opinion but you did say that there was more money on the table. So did Schiable, MacTiernan, Mishak, Ruiz, Pike, and a multitude of others. Well where is this extra money we were supposed to get. Vote no until we get an acceptable deal? Now we will not be accepting any deal, its about to get forced on us and its worse than the TA. Why can't you understand that? Its because you can't deliver so you keep trying to explain and dodge the fact that you gave bad advice.

So again you say don't worry guys, you'll be back working by 2018. Unfortunately it will be at wages and terms set by a judge that are far inferior to the TA. That sounds just like the TWU saying, "Don't worry brother, we'll get'em next time." The only thing is that the TWU was recommending voting in $37/hour and keeping overhaul and renegotiating later.

If you were so sure the 2010 "deal" was the best available, why didn't you and your kind simply petition Little Jimmy to accept the contract on our behalf, as he can do?

 

[Duke787]

That's your opinion but you did say that there was more money on the table. So did Schiable, MacTiernan, Mishak, Ruiz, Pike, and a multitude of others. Well where is this extra money we were supposed to get. Vote no until we get an acceptable deal? Now we will not be accepting any deal, its about to get forced on us and its worse than the TA. Why can't you understand that? Its because you can't deliver so you keep trying to explain and dodge the fact that you gave bad advice.

So again you say don't worry guys, you'll be back working by 2018. Unfortunately it will be at wages and terms set by a judge that are far inferior to the TA. That sounds just like the TWU saying, "Don't worry brother, we'll get'em next time." The only thing is that the TWU was recommending voting in $37/hour and keeping overhaul and renegotiating later.

Well said.......how many times do these guys need to be proven wrong before they realize this isn't August 2001? Their lobbing against a raise because it wasn't restore and more is swinging for the fences and striking out making us sit on the bench for another few YEARS....

 

[Mr Red]

Well said.......how many times do these guys need to be proven wrong before they realize this isn't August 2001? Their lobbing against a raise because it wasn't restore and more is swinging for the fences and striking out making us sit on the bench for another few YEARS....

STOP trying to rewrite history,Most of us said NO MORE CONCESSIONS , PERIOD !! It was 2.00 in one pocket 10.00 out the other. Thats what the MAJORITY could see!

 

[Frank Szabo]

I dont remember the TWU recommending to vote out pre funding or the pension. The company says they need to be at industry standards,if thats the case we should be getting a raise since we are at the bottom.

Good point - I realize it's not much more than wishful thinking but good point regardless. 5 holidays is industry standard? What is the "standard" re: vacation and sick time? What is the middle-of-the-road pay scale?

There are other industries out there that use the "mechanic and related" skillsets. The entire airline industry hasn't been good for years and there has been a steady walk to the doors by quite a few. If the job of the judge is, in fact, to provide the company with what it needs to survive, I can't see the terms sheets being granted without giving quite a few of the more experienced people great incentive to exit the company - hardly a recipe for survival, rather, an incentive to shut the doors after the business plan fails due to lack of knowledge - as it seems designed to do and forcing more consolidation in the industry.

I will, however, be very interested in seeing the job offers the upper management are supposed to present to the judge in order to qualify for their "failure bonuses" and if the judge will say "take the job" in lieu of payment (as he has the option of doing per the 2005 minor overhaul of the Chapter 11, USC).

The colored charts and graphs look good, though - gotta give credit where credit is due.

 

[Overspeed]

I dont remember the TWU recommending to vote out pre funding or the pension. The company says they need to be at industry standards,if thats the case we should be getting a raise since we are at the bottom.

That's because they didn't. The retiree medical stayed intact for those over 50, a bridge for those from 45 to 50, and increased SK bank for the retiree medical purchase at active rates. The pension stayed intact for incumbent members with a 401k plan DC plan for new hires. Your mistake, listening to the rhetoric and not reading the proposal yourself.

See that's the thing about BK, you don't get what's fair you get what they can prove they need. Industry standard is about 50% outsourcing and $36 to $37 hourly but the guiding principle in BK isn't industry standard, it is what gets the creditors paid back on their loans. When we voted no and rolled the dice on AA possibly going to BK we took the chance it could get worse. Well, it did. The TWU reps that knew this and voted to bring back the TA knew that the odds were not in our favor and getting paid industry standard wages with below industry average outsourcing sounded like the better bet. In retrospect, that advice seems even more prudent. Too late now though.

 

[Overspeed]

If you were so sure the 2010 "deal" was the best available, why didn't you and your kind simply petition Little Jimmy to accept the contract on our behalf, as he can do?

I told my fellow members in my area that it was probably the best we were going to get and I voted.

Why didn't Jim intervene? In a word, politics. I doubt Mike Quill would have allowed this membership to be the equivalent of cutting. For those of you who don't know what that is it is self-injury. It is an unhealthy way to cope with emotional pain, intense anger and frustration.

Jim should have done a membership intervention and cut the head off the snake that was driving the problem. Leaders that obviously have their own agendas. Bob saw weak minded people like Pike and Ruiz to manipulate to further his own quest for more money for himself at any cost. Now Pike's members at his base will be gone when AFW closes, and Ruiz with his post 95 seniority will be lucky if he keeps his job on midnights Tuesday/Wednesday. Bob, well Bob will be just fine since he has much more seniority and keep his nice 562 Officer salary and day shift with weekends off. Yep, Bob will be just fine.

 

[Overspeed]

Breaking news, line maintenance outsourcing to be the next growth trend. Now what Bob?

Flightglobal (Dallas)

Line maintenance will drive outsourcing growth trends for maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) services, a new forecast predicts.

The ICF SH&E consultancy released a forecast on 4 April at the MRO Americas conference showing that airlines will increase the outsourcing of line maintenance to 40% over the next 10 years, or 11 percentage points higher than today.

"Line maintenance will be the fastest growing segment" of outsourced MRO services, says Jonathan Berger, vice president of ICF SH&E.

Unlike outsourcing for aircraft engines, components and heavy airframe checks, airlines have been reluctant to quickly outsource line maintenance services.

Although only 29% of line maintenance work is performed by external vendors, airlines have outsourced 80% of maintenance for aircraft engines and components. About 60% of heavy airframe checks are also outsourced.

But airline managements are increasingly pressuring their maintenance divisions to transfer risk to suppliers, Berger says.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Breaking news, line maintenance outsourcing to be the next growth trend. Now what Bob?

Flightglobal (Dallas)

Line maintenance will drive outsourcing growth trends for maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) services, a new forecast predicts.

The ICF SH&E consultancy released a forecast on 4 April at the MRO Americas conference showing that airlines will increase the outsourcing of line maintenance to 40% over the next 10 years, or 11 percentage points higher than today.

"Line maintenance will be the fastest growing segment" of outsourced MRO services, says Jonathan Berger, vice president of ICF SH&E.

Unlike outsourcing for aircraft engines, components and heavy airframe checks, airlines have been reluctant to quickly outsource line maintenance services.

Although only 29% of line maintenance work is performed by external vendors, airlines have outsourced 80% of maintenance for aircraft engines and components. About 60% of heavy airframe checks are also outsourced.

But airline managements are increasingly pressuring their maintenance divisions to transfer risk to suppliers, Berger says.

Now all we have to do is send all management functions to India - that'll save some money - where's that judge?

 

[FWAAA]

I will, however, be very interested in seeing the job offers the upper management are supposed to present to the judge in order to qualify for their "failure bonuses" and if the judge will say "take the job" in lieu of payment (as he has the option of doing per the 2005 minor overhaul of the Chapter 11, USC).

So far, management hasn't attempted any retention bonus arrangements and I don't expect to see any. All is not lost, however - management will probably claim a substantial portion of the new stock for themselves - a situation not addressed by the 2005 bankruptcy law changes.