TWU negotiations.........what?

[Frank Szabo]

Why did you say that at the worst we get if we voted no is the last best offer in the vote no video?

Why did you say BK was just a threat?

Why did you and Bob say we were leaving more money on the table?

Was your only plan "release"?

Didn't you know that when we got to BK that we wouldn't get a raise when all those jobs got outsourced?

Didn't you know we would be working from the pay rate we entered BK with as a starting point? Now we are starting from $32 not $37.

I just say "ask them"?

That's a rather convenient way to not answer the man's questions - I've seen it employed for all of my time at AA, typically when the union guy hasn't any answers - redirecting the conversation seems to work every time as an attempt to put the other guy on the defensive. It's an age-old tactic some of us are very aware of as well as other tricks to shut the questioners up.

Answer the questions - Chuck might even answer your questions if you're decent about it and not act like the stereotypical "union man".

I'd like to hear your answers as well - why does the international treat themselves on a par with the Centreport elite while the workers take concessions and why do you obviously feel their behavior is acceptable?

 

[737823]

That's a rather convenient way to not answer the man's questions - I've seen it employed for all of my time at AA, typically when the union guy hasn't any answers - redirecting the conversation seems to work every time as an attempt to put the other guy on the defensive. It's an age-old tactic some of us are very aware of as well as other tricks to shut the questioners up.

Answer the questions - Chuck might even answer your questions if you're decent about it and not act like the stereotypical "union man".

I'd like to hear your answers as well - why does the international treat themselves on a par with the Centreport elite while the workers take concessions and why do you obviously feel their behavior is acceptable?

Frank, maybe the crux of the issue is that you'd be better served without representation than with the worthless TWU serving as a facilitator for concessions.

Josh

 

[Overspeed]

That's a rather convenient way to not answer the man's questions - I've seen it employed for all of my time at AA, typically when the union guy hasn't any answers - redirecting the conversation seems to work every time as an attempt to put the other guy on the defensive. It's an age-old tactic some of us are very aware of as well as other tricks to shut the questioners up.

Answer the questions - Chuck might even answer your questions if you're decent about it and not act like the stereotypical "union man".

I'd like to hear your answers as well - why does the international treat themselves on a par with the Centreport elite while the workers take concessions and why do you obviously feel their behavior is acceptable?

I can't speak for the Int'l. My opinion however?

On the travel issue, for business I fully endorse the need of a positive space travel pass for meetings, arbitrations, or other union business having to do with representing the membership's interests. Pleasure would be considered a perk, that should probably be reported on LM2's as compensation but that is my opinion.

I believe whatever your position is for your members, should be the same for yourself. Don't ask people to do something you would not do yourself. The TWU Constitution does state that pay is based on the entire TWU membership, not just AA's contract.

 

[AA-MRO.COM]

Why did you say that at the worst we get if we voted no is the last best offer in the vote no video?

Why did you say BK was just a threat?

Why did you and Bob say we were leaving more money on the table?

Was your only plan "release"?

Didn't you know that when we got to BK that we wouldn't get a raise when all those jobs got outsourced?

Didn't you know we would be working from the pay rate we entered BK with as a starting point? Now we are starting from $32 not $37.

I just say "ask them"?

You cant be that ignorant can you ????

In negotiating these were facts but when a company decides to circumvent the negotiating process by using the 1113 process things become different. Your yes vote would have done nothing because the other union groups would have driven the 1113 nail into the coffin. Get a grip at least you still have a job well for the next few months anyway....

 

[Overspeed]

You cant be that ignorant can you ????

In negotiating these were facts but when a company decides to circumvent the negotiating process by using the 1113 process things become different. Your yes vote would have done nothing because the other union groups would have driven the 1113 nail into the coffin. Get a grip at least you still have a job well for the next few months anyway....

I'll still have a job when this place is a gas n go. I have enough seniority for that.

In negotiations the committee was presented with information. Now you can go on and on about how the company lies and the Int'l is in bed with management but the fact remains, BK was always raised as a strong possibility. Right after the 2003 concessions we were told about how financially weak the company was and still is and how susceptible to shocks like SARS, the volcano, oil, the weak economy, etc... but the committee ignored that and was very self-assured they would get a big pay day. We all got bombarded by rhetoric about how there was more money on the table and that management bonuses proved that. So even if Bob and his team are right about that there is money on the table, he never had the leverage to get it and still doesn't. I mean how oblivious and arrogant can one person be to say that this union or people have the power to force liquidation? What a joke!

The fact is that we will all get thrashed by the 1113c process and the committee was told this was an angle, sham or not, that AA could wield and they have.

Call me names all you want and post all the rhetoric about how we got screwed. At the end of the day, we all lose. Yeah some will find other jobs but really, will they all go on to great careers making more than they make now? Not all. There is a line at which a person says time to move on, but as noted recently regarding the hail damage in DFW, there apparently is not that many that have had enough. Another miscue by the committee, not knowing your membership's resolve.

 

[787nightmare]

I'll still have a job when this place is a gas n go. I have enough seniority for that.

In negotiations the committee was presented with information. Now you can go on and on about how the company lies and the Int'l is in bed with management but the fact remains, BK was always raised as a strong possibility. Right after the 2003 concessions we were told about how financially weak the company was and still is and how susceptible to shocks like SARS, the volcano, oil, the weak economy, etc... but the committee ignored that and was very self-assured they would get a big pay day. We all got bombarded by rhetoric about how there was more money on the table and that management bonuses proved that. So even if Bob and his team are right about that there is money on the table, he never had the leverage to get it and still doesn't. I mean how oblivious and arrogant can one person be to say that this union or people have the power to force liquidation? What a joke!

The fact is that we will all get thrashed by the 1113c process and the committee was told this was an angle, sham or not, that AA could wield and they have.

Call me names all you want and post all the rhetoric about how we got screwed. At the end of the day, we all lose. Yeah some will find other jobs but really, will they all go on to great careers making more than they make now? Not all. There is a line at which a person says time to move on, but as noted recently regarding the hail damage in DFW, there apparently is not that many that have had enough. Another miscue by the committee, not knowing your membership's resolve.

All of two takers thus far in H5 @ 16:40.
A lot of people apparently passing.

 

[Bob Owens]

I can't speak for the Int'l. My opinion however?

On the travel issue, for business I fully endorse the need of a positive space travel pass for meetings, arbitrations, or other union business having to do with representing the membership's interests. Pleasure would be considered a perk, that should probably be reported on LM2's as compensation but that is my opinion.

I believe whatever your position is for your members, should be the same for yourself. Don't ask people to do something you would not do yourself. The TWU Constitution does state that pay is based on the entire TWU membership, not just AA's contract.

On the travel issue I agree that positive space travel is warranted, the RLA says that the Carrier must provide transportation for negotiations , we travel on A-12s, like when the company sends us to training, however what they are recieving can only be described as a gift from the company. I dont think its unique to the TWU but I do believe its unique to AA. Its wrong and the fact that they keep such a gift at this time instead of standing as equals with the rest of us just shows the disconnect. The fact that they fly at higher levels than most management understandibly leaves one to wonder what they do to earn such a privilege, they should tell the company to take it back and throw the value into the pot of concessions the company is asking for. They should do this out of principle to show their members that they are willing to make sacrifices too, otherwise it looks like they look at us as Leona Helmsley did "Only the little people ride coach" and not as Brothers and Sisters.

The Constitution only covers the Presidents pay, nobody else.

And when did I say we could force liquidation? More spin? I said the company is saying they must have these things they are asking for in order to reorganize, in other words if they dont get them they will will not be able to reorganize and that means liquidate. If the company needs us to subsidize their faulty business plan by agreeing to give up what nobody else gave up then I say "go ahead and liquidate". Its their claim, and they are making it us and to the Judge, not mine. I personally dont think they need any of that stuff, in fact I think we should get back a lot of stuff that we already gave up that nobody else gave up, after all they want to compete and true competitions are on a level playing field. Many of the things the company is asking they put down as zero value, if it has zero value then why would they need it?

 

[Overspeed]

All of two takers thus far in H5 @ 16:40.
A lot of people apparently passing.

From today's M&E Update


TULE Provides Quick Response– Tulsa-based AMTs, Crew Chiefs, planners and supervisors moved quickly to help support DFW station mechanics in the wake of the destructive thunderstorms that slashed violently through the DFW area on Tuesday, April 3. Thirty-six TULE personnel, including mechanics from affected fleets, tech crew chiefs, supervisors, and planners, left Tulsa on Tuesday evening at 9:00pm to help DFW mechanics evaluate and repair aircraft that suffered hail damage in the storm. The Tulsa Support Team rented five vans due to lack of flights and to provide transportation for personnel while at DFW. TULE based personnel will work closely with the DFW station mechanics to resolve aircraft damage issues as quickly as possible. (TULE Maintenance)

 

[Bob Owens]

I'll still have a job when this place is a gas n go. I have enough seniority for that.

In negotiations the committee was presented with information. Now you can go on and on about how the company lies and the Int'l is in bed with management but the fact remains, BK was always raised as a strong possibility. Right after the 2003 concessions we were told about how financially weak the company was and still is and how susceptible to shocks like SARS, the volcano, oil, the weak economy, etc... but the committee ignored that and was very self-assured they would get a big pay day. We all got bombarded by rhetoric about how there was more money on the table and that management bonuses proved that. So even if Bob and his team are right about that there is money on the table, he never had the leverage to get it and still doesn't. I mean how oblivious and arrogant can one person be to say that this union or people have the power to force liquidation? What a joke!

The fact is that we will all get thrashed by the 1113c process and the committee was told this was an angle, sham or not, that AA could wield and they have.

Call me names all you want and post all the rhetoric about how we got screwed. At the end of the day, we all lose. Yeah some will find other jobs but really, will they all go on to great careers making more than they make now? Not all. There is a line at which a person says time to move on, but as noted recently regarding the hail damage in DFW, there apparently is not that many that have had enough. Another miscue by the committee, not knowing your membership's resolve.

The TA was voted down, so I guess you are right, a miscue by the committee.

Every member of the M&R group who voted yes and faced and election has been removed by their members, including your President, No? I'm still here, so is Larry, so is JR and so is Brian, Steve Gukelberger and Vinny, we all were reelected. What was that you called me "The Teflon President"? Why, because the Shyte you thow doesnt stick?

As far as the field trip I'm not suprised that out of the thousands of people there, they were able to find a few dozen like you.

 

[Overspeed]

And when did I say we could force liquidation? More spin? I said the company is saying they must have these things they are asking for in order to reorganize, in other words if they dont get them they will will not be able to reorganize and that means liquidate. If the company needs us to subsidize their faulty business plan by agreeing to give up what nobody else gave up then I say "go ahead and liquidate". Its their claim, and they are making it us and to the Judge, not mine. I personally dont think they need any of that stuff, in fact I think we should get back a lot of stuff that we already gave up that nobody else gave up, after all they want to compete and true competitions are on a level playing field.

Bob you have said multiple times that if we do not get what at least UA/CO got we should shut it down. Remember when you said number 8 then liquidate? What did that mean? Apparently nothing because liquidation is not our choice. The decision to impose the company's ask belongs to the judge. If he rules to award the company's motion to impose the new pay rates (number 8) then what? What is your strategy then? The only choice you have is to continue to negotiate under imposed terms with the company. Where's your hammer? You will still complain about the NMB not releasing us, the Int'l owns the contract, and you are nothing more than a witness (your words). So why are you there? What is your function? Here's a plan, why don't you recommend that the negotiating committee disband then you can blame the Int'l for everything and not waste the membership's money with the rental cars, hotels, meals, and other incidentals. You can have the committee vote you as negotiations reporter and can continue posting your tirades and rants about how the Int'l is screwing us over just like always.

 

[Overspeed]

The TA was voted down, so I guess you are right, a miscue by the committee.

As far as the field trip I'm not suprised that out of the thousands of people there they were able to find a few dozen like you.

Yep, turned down the extension and we have a voted down TA. On the extension we would have been negotiating already but we would have had a lot of things back already and thousands of dollars in our pockets. Then we voted down the TA which would have given us more items back and more dollars in our pockets. We have been told all along that the committee was going to get us more. So where is it?

I'm not working OT so I can have more time to blog. Just like you going to negotiations that achieve nothing and having more time to blog. We got a good scam huh?

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob you have said multiple times that if we do not get what at least UA/CO got we should shut it down. Remember when you said number 8 then liquidate? What did that mean? Apparently nothing because liquidation is not our choice. The decision to impose the company's ask belongs to the judge. If he rules to award the company's motion to impose the new pay rates (number 8) then what? What is your strategy then? The only choice you have is to continue to negotiate under imposed terms with the company. Where's your hammer? You will still complain about the NMB not releasing us, the Int'l owns the contract, and you are nothing more than a witness (your words). So why are you there? What is your function? Here's a plan, why don't you recommend that the negotiating committee disband then you can blame the Int'l for everything and not waste the membership's money with the rental cars, hotels, meals, and other incidentals. You can have the committee vote you as negotiations reporter and can continue posting your tirades and rants about how the Int'l is screwing us over just like always.

Yep, continue to negotiate, the hammer is the members and how they react to what the company imposes. I'd rather take my chances than settle for six years of what the company is proposing. Technically the Judge just rips up the contract, and another court allows the company to self help as if the contract never existed, the same court on the other hand says that airline workers, and only airline workers, are not legally entitled to self help, once again its up to the members to show what they will or will not tolerate, (will we go sit in the back of the bus and give up our seat if anyone who isnt an airline worker gets on?) so basically according to the court we are back to 1946, no contract and no status quo. We need to behave like Rail workers or dock workers, then maybe we would be treated like them. Could you imagine either of those groups allowing such a double standard being imposed on them and simply abiding by it?

According to Al Blackman, the only one I know who was here in 1946 we had more back then than we do now. What do you suppose our predecessors would have done if what is being presented to us was presented to them?

We dont know what the NMB will do, after all this has not happened before. The NMB has to cite a reason for their belief that absent self help for both parties, as the law prescribes, continued negotiations will lead to a deal, well after 4 years of negotiations, three in mediation, a rejected TA and a trip through BK how could it be any more apparent that absent self help for both sides a deal will not be reached? Of course disruptions, or at the very least deterioration of the operation is really whats needed to get things moving, I have no illusions as to the lack of neutrality among the decision makers in the NMB, the first two things cited make that abundantly clear, but its harder for them to insist that this is the way the process is supposed to work when commerce is impaired.

I will continue to go and be the voice , ears and eyes of the people who elected me, thats why I'm there, but the facts are what they are, I do not have any authority over the International. Like I said, look at Article 47, what does it say? Are you denying that all the people who are referred to as "negotiators" are listed as "witnesses" ? The fact is being a witness does carry some value, it often changes the way people act when they know there are witnesses.

 

[737823]

Yep, continue to negotiate, the hammer is the members and how they react to what the company imposes. I'd rather take my chances than settle for six years of what the company is proposing. Technically the Judge just rips up the contract, and another court allows the company to self help as if the contract never existed, the same court on the other hand says that airline workers, and only airline workers, are not legally entitled to self help, once again its up to the members to show what they will or will not tolerate, (will we go sit in the back of the bus and give up our seat if anyone who isnt an airline worker gets on?) so basically according to the court we are back to 1946, no contract and no status quo. We need to behave like Rail workers or dock workers, then maybe we would be treated like them. Could you imagine either of those groups allowing such a double standard being imposed on them and simply abiding by it?

According to Al Blackman, the only one I know who was here in 1946 we had more back then than we do now. What do you suppose our predecessors would have done if what is being presented to us was presented to them?

We dont know what the NMB will do, after all this has not happened before. The NMB has to cite a reason for their belief that absent self help for both parties, as the law prescribes, continued negotiations will lead to a deal, well after 4 years of negotiations, three in mediation, a rejected TA and a trip through BK how could it be any more apparent that absent self help for both sides a deal will not be reached? Of course disruptions, or at the very least deterioration of the operation is really whats needed to get things moving, I have no illusions as to the lack of neutrality among the decision makers in the NMB, the first two things cited make that abundantly clear, but its harder for them to insist that this is the way the process is supposed to work when commerce is impaired.

I will continue to go and be the voice , ears and eyes of the people who elected me, thats why I'm there, but the facts are what they are, I do not have any authority over the International. Like I said, look at Article 47, what does it say? Are you denying that all the people who are referred to as "negotiators" are listed as "witnesses" ? The fact is being a witness does carry some value, it often changes the way people act when they know there are witnesses.

Bob, you are not going to get released by the NMB anytime soon. Even if you were released, would you ultimately strike even if it meant pushing AA into liquidation?

Josh

 

[AA-MRO.COM]

Bob you have said multiple times that if we do not get what at least UA/CO got we should shut it down. Remember when you said number 8 then liquidate? What did that mean? Apparently nothing because liquidation is not our choice. The decision to impose the company's ask belongs to the judge. If he rules to award the company's motion to impose the new pay rates (number 8) then what? What is your strategy then? The only choice you have is to continue to negotiate under imposed terms with the company. Where's your hammer? You will still complain about the NMB not releasing us, the Int'l owns the contract, and you are nothing more than a witness (your words). So why are you there? What is your function? Here's a plan, why don't you recommend that the negotiating committee disband then you can blame the Int'l for everything and not waste the membership's money with the rental cars, hotels, meals, and other incidentals. You can have the committee vote you as negotiations reporter and can continue posting your tirades and rants about how the Int'l is screwing us over just like always.

Lets face it you are the minority. The members voted that POS TA down. Now we are in bankruptcy and the judge decides. What exactly have you done besides vote yes ??????
Why dont you run for an elected position and try and get your points across to sway the vote. All I see is you bashing Bob on a forum. We voted NO and if they pass us another concessionery proposal we will vote NO again. We are tired of being raped by the same people Id rather take it from behind from someone else. I know one thing it wont be you

 

[Buck]

We need to behave like Rail workers or dock workers, then maybe we would be treated like them.

Curious, do the Rail maintenance groups negotiate with their baggage handlers or Pullman.? If that is the correct term?