TWU negotiations.........what?

[DallasConehead]

I think they would choke if we told them that just as they did in 2003 but by agreeing to it then they really don’t have an argument for abrogation, not that they need it but it at least makes it look like they are being unreasonable to any reasonable person.

Unfortunately, being reasonable is not one of the elements of an 1113c.

Under section 1113 of the Bankruptcy Code, the bankruptcy court may authorize an employer to reject—and thus terminate—a collective bargaining agreement if the debtor can prove to the bankruptcy court that
1.it proposed modifications to the collective bargaining agreement to the union;
2.the proposed modifications are necessary to permit the debtor's reorganization;
3.the debtor met with the union and shared information justifying the proposed modifications;
4.the debtor negotiated in good faith with the union; and
5.the union refused to accept the proposal modifications without good cause.

 

[Bob Owens]

But.....If the pension is frozen, will you still be able to leave at 55? Does that provision still remain?

Yes, the provision remains.

 

[Deleted member 14439]

Subject: Lufthansa Technik problems

April 2,2012 Lufthansa Technik Switzerland considers extensive restructuring By: Christine Boynton Lufthansa Technik Switzerland (LTSW) announced Wednesday it had found that “extensive restructuring measures” would likely be necessary across the company,citing a difficult market position exacerbated by the continuing exchange rate strength of the Swiss franc. “The decline in demand for services,the ongoing fierce competition in the MRO industry and the problematic exchange rate development of the Swiss franc have resulted in insufficient utilization of the company´s available capacities,particularly in the areas of overhaul and maintenance of regional aircraft and engine overhauls for AVRO aircraft,” the company said in a statement. “A sustained revitalization of this segment is currently not foreseeable.” LTSW has initiated a consultation procedure with its staff commission,trade unions and personnel associations. The company said it will seek “alternative courses of action” relating to job cuts in the administration and production area,which “seem…to be possible.” "It is with great regret that we must consider drastic personnel reductions,” Lufthansa Technik Switzerland CEO Rainer Lindau said. “It is very important to us to find as many socially responsible solutions as possible for our employees." The former Swiss International Air Lines technical division,Swiss Technik,was relaunched as Lufthansa

 

[eolesen]

How is LHT Switzerland even relevant?... They specialize in RJ overhauls, particularly the AVRO (next gen BAe146).

Their problems are just collateral damage to what's happening in the Eurozone. They're also not an outfit AMR would have ever contracted with for mainline overhauls (although LHT itself might be an option).

 

[Deleted member 14439]

Relax e. It speaks to what is going on in the MRO market.

 

[eolesen]

If you say so, but it sounds like it just speaks more to what's happening to a company extremely vulnerable to the Euro... Nobody is going to fly a RJ from Africa or Asia to Switzerland....

 

[Bob Owens]

How is LHT Switzerland even relevant?... They specialize in RJ overhauls, particularly the AVRO (next gen BAe146).

Their problems are just collateral damage to what's happening in the Eurozone. They're also not an outfit AMR would have ever contracted with for mainline overhauls (although LHT itself might be an option).

Funny how you guys are so quick to tell us that airplanes can fly anywhere to be Overhauled then say that its not relevant when they have to reorganize.

As wages converge between the Airlines and the MROs expect to more of this;
http://www2.dothaneagle.com/news/2012/mar/05/pemco-filing-bankruptcy-ar-3354806/

Is that more rellevant?

AAR has been complianing for months they cant get people, as other carriers continue to hire they will have a harder time keeping what they have. Even SWA is hiring. When have you seen companies merge then hire more workers? Normally with a merger you have layoffs.

I hear UAL is having a similar response from the guys they are trying to recall that AA had. "Thanks but no thanks".

The supply is dwindling, not just in the US (go by one of those A&P schools and see how many are foreignors studying here and going back home) BK is AAs last gasp to throw in a crappy long term deal and hope they can get away with what they did in 1995.

Here's how it used to go.
1.Go to school get your A&P License.
2. Work for an MRO to get experience
3. Work for a fly by night carrier to get heavy turbine experience
4. Get into a major carrier.

The first to get hit when the schools dont pump out enough are the MRO's , sure they dont have to hire A&Ps but since most A&Ps that dont go into General Aviation want to go to a major they can get away with paying less than they would to retain someone with mechanical abilities who could care less about airplanes. Its looked at as an internship by the mechanic, he will work cheap just to get experience with the hope that it pays off when he gets to a major. If whats out there now was the best they had to look forward to there would be very very few going into this Industry, they could play with Cars, boats, trucks, Trains, etc, instead. Thats where we are now, few are coming in to the industry. The airlines will continue to draw mechanics from MROs and Regionals. When I was hired you needed five years of Heavy Turbine Experience, now you dont need any. Soon the steps will be;
1. Go to School, get your A&P License
2. Get into a major carrier
3. Realize thats all there is and go into another industry after you realize how much time and money you wasted getting your A&P.

 

[eolesen]

Funny how you guys are so quick to tell us that airplanes can fly anywhere to be Overhauled then say that its not relevant when they have to reorganize.

If the example were for someone who did widebody MRO or even narrowbody MRO, you'd have a point.

But they don't.

These guys overhaul RJ's as a subsidiary of the larger LHT organization. You're looking at an operation picked out of the carcass of Swissair when they imploded, and a rather small piece at that.

It's like pointing at the bankruptcy of Pinnacle Airlines, and using that as an indicator that DL is going to be the next to file, since 80% of Pinnacle's business comes from DL....

When the narrative changes to the real Lufthansa Technik, Singapore Aerospace, TIMCO, or HAECO, let me know. Those guys seem to be doing pretty well for the time being, although I'm sure the margins at LHT are a little slimmer than they used to be.

 

[Overspeed]

If the example were for someone who did widebody MRO or even narrowbody MRO, you'd have a point.

But they don't.

These guys overhaul RJ's as a subsidiary of the larger LHT organization. You're looking at an operation picked out of the carcass of Swissair when they imploded, and a rather small piece at that.

It's like pointing at the bankruptcy of Pinnacle Airlines, and using that as an indicator that DL is going to be the next to file, since 80% of Pinnacle's business comes from DL....

When the narrative changes to the real Lufthansa Technik, Singapore Aerospace, TIMCO, or HAECO, let me know. Those guys seem to be doing pretty well for the time being, although I'm sure the margins at LHT are a little slimmer than they used to be.

It does sound like the MRO market is no longer in its free wheeling days anymore. Like the airline industry, the MROs are suffering from poor planning and overcapacity. I expect some consolidation in the industry. AAR and ST Aero have been making acquisitions and will probably reorganize their operating model. TIMCO and PEMCO (now - BK) may merge with each other or someone else. Europe has really never been a place that US carriers seek out for airframe work. AMECO, HAECO, HAESL, and LHT Philippines pull in US WBs but NBs make no sense to ferry there. In my opinion Aeroman, COOPESA, and Aeromexico are a real threat to US MROs and airlines. With their vastly lower wages, short ferry distances (which may not be needed of you fly there), and non-existant environmental regulations it may be the next threat to US jobs. Love that NAFTA!

LHT has been starting to complain about margins and that OEMs are starting set up service contracts with the sale of aircraft and engines. AA may do this with Airbus and Boeing on the new fleets. Aeroman is Airbus MRO Network partner and who says they won't build that in to the newly restructured deal? Caledonian Airmotive did that with CO and the GE engines.

Overhaul might be better off being bought out by a LHT. We know LHT management can run an MRO, pay good wages and benefits, and make money in the business.

 

[Bob Owens]

LHT has been starting to complain about margins and that OEMs are starting set up service contracts with the sale of aircraft and engines. AA may do this with Airbus and Boeing on the new fleets. Aeroman is Airbus MRO Network partner and who says they won't build that in to the newly restructured deal? Caledonian Airmotive did that with CO and the GE engines.

If AA dumped their fleet in the market it would drive prices up for everyone else. From what I've seen there are less than 100 places worlwide that do that type of work and "capacity is tight" for widebody work, what keeps the prices low is that carriers threaten to bring it in house, thats why SWA keeps their lines going. South America and Asia are emerging markets, more and more of their capacity will be consumed by their own growing fleets. AABus and Boeing doing their own? Well Lockheed used to have a pretty decent sized operation at JFK years ago, and they paid pretty well too. I would imagine Boeing would be a pretty decent alternative to what AA is looking for BK to get them.

Where was that SWA Convertible last overhauled?

 

[JABORD]

If AA dumped their fleet in the market it would drive prices up for everyone else. From what I've seen there are less than 100 places worlwide that do that type of work and "capacity is tight" for widebody work, what keeps the prices low is that carriers threaten to bring it in house, thats why SWA keeps their lines going. South America and Asia are emerging markets, more and more of their capacity will be consumed by their own growing fleets. AABus and Boeing doing their own? Well Lockheed used to have a pretty decent sized operation at JFK years ago, and they paid pretty well too. I would imagine Boeing would be a pretty decent alternative to what AA is looking for BK to get them.

Where was that SWA Convertible last overhauled?

Hey Bob, while your available I want to thank you buddy. Most of us sitting here in the grandstands can't even imagine the effort your putting out! You've got more support than I think you know and I wish you success and good health.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

the TWU preached concessions for jobs in 2003 and 2012, then why didn't the TWU International officers all take concessions to save the people that were laid off from their International Positions this year?

these are the questions I get from the floor to which I have no answer


2nd question I got from the floor with no answer from me

Why do international officers fly A5 passes on business and vacations?


I just say "ask them"

 

[Deleted member 14439]

They can do that brother

 

[Buck]

the TWU preached concessions for jobs in 2003 and 2012, then why didn't the TWU International officers all take concessions to save the people that were laid off from their International Positions this year?

these are the questions I get from the floor to which I have no answer


2nd question I got from the floor with no answer from me

Why do international officers fly A5 passes on business and vacations?


I just say "ask them"

Why don't the local president's ask them?

 

[Overspeed]

the TWU preached concessions for jobs in 2003 and 2012, then why didn't the TWU International officers all take concessions to save the people that were laid off from their International Positions this year?

these are the questions I get from the floor to which I have no answer


2nd question I got from the floor with no answer from me

Why do international officers fly A5 passes on business and vacations?


I just say "ask them"

Why did you say that at the worst we get if we voted no is the last best offer in the vote no video?

Why did you say BK was just a threat?

Why did you and Bob say we were leaving more money on the table?

Was your only plan "release"?

Didn't you know that when we got to BK that we wouldn't get a raise when all those jobs got outsourced?

Didn't you know we would be working from the pay rate we entered BK with as a starting point? Now we are starting from $32 not $37.

I just say "ask them"?