TWU negotiations.........what?

[Overspeed]

"Number 8 no way, go ahead and liquidate!"

You don't have that power nor does anyone else other than the judge. The secured creditors get priority and you know that. What are you going to do, march in and demand liquidation? I know what article 47 says and I also know that you have a vote at the negotiating table. Stop trying to side step the issue that you have a role. You witness the signing of the contract, if you really that impotent than go back to riding the Matterhorn.

I have read through all your comments and the same theme comes up, you are trying to act against a legal process that is in place since before you were there. Keep complaining, keep laying out plans that can never be, and in the end you will realize that what really matters is what the judge says now, not you.

Remember, BK is threat, more money is on the table, and we cannot be replaced.

OT is indication of mismanagement, not the overabundance of work. And read the term sheets Bob, they want to outsource line maintenance work to overseas and domestic Class IV stations. That will kill the OT and the shortage of labor that you lean on won't it. Sad but true, you still do not know what you are talking about and the membership is going to realize that real soon.

 

[Overspeed]

Question for Bob since he is the only leader with balls. If there was to be an unapproved action to take a stand who would take charge, I've said all along to my co-workers the only way to fix things is to break the law. Hell I would love to spend the night in jail for our cause but im a nobody who would follow me. Its time for our leaders to grow a set, I think they would be very surprised how much support they have I will fight like hell for a strong leader. Just my thoughts

Look at the APA TRO during the Reno Air merger. The judge fined the APA President and VP personally (because they were apparently not doing enough) and the organization. But then the Local 100 debacle showed what happens when the senior leadership orders the Local president to get his members back to work or doing enough. Local 100 was fined but the Int'l was not.

Being that we are in BK I doubt the Int'l would back labor unrest and a job action. That being said, any Local that acts independently would face a TRO on their own. Both Local 565 and 564 have been faced with a TRO by AA in the past.

 

[iluvaa]

You don't have that power nor does anyone else other than the judge. The secured creditors get priority and you know that. What are you going to do, march in and demand liquidation? I know what article 47 says and I also know that you have a vote at the negotiating table. Stop trying to side step the issue that you have a role. You witness the signing of the contract, if you really that impotent than go back to riding the Matterhorn.

I have read through all your comments and the same theme comes up, you are trying to act against a legal process that is in place since before you were there. Keep complaining, keep laying out plans that can never be, and in the end you will realize that what really matters is what the judge says now, not you.

Remember, BK is threat, more money is on the table, and we cannot be replaced.

OT is indication of mismanagement, not the overabundance of work. And read the term sheets Bob, they want to outsource line maintenance work to overseas and domestic Class IV stations. That will kill the OT and the shortage of labor that you lean on won't it. Sad but true, you still do not know what you are talking about and the membership is going to realize that real soon.

time to say f the law, hell ill go to jail for it whos with me

 

[odie01]

Latest info from neg., expect something is going to happen pretty quick, Title I 1,200- 1,600 going to street, system wide. Last proposal from the TWU w as 4 year deal, Company wants $210M from M&E.

I heard the same thing through the AMP pipeline a few hours ago.

 

[Overspeed]

Look in the mirror and pat yourself on the back for our demise. We are sheep, weak, passive and dummies for keeping the TWU!

I agree with you. We are weak and we all, ALL, bear responsibility.

I confront Bob because he assumes that we operate in a bubble and he can cherry pick facts. The reality is that if you know that the deck is stacked against you under the existing rules and laws (union and federal) why would you play that game? Maybe he should have read the rule book and then mobilized the membership to work to change the laws and regulations. Now we are in fight that and we are sure to get our butts kicked. Shouldn't we have had a strategy more than we need to be released to get a good contract? The committee has been negotiating for four years and for what?

A good leader knows when his people are ready for battle. We weren't prepared properly. Where was the education for what could and could not happen? Where was the financial planning for the strike or potential job loss? All we got was a lot of posturing from Bob and advice to take money out of our 401k's. Really? That's it?

 

[strikeforce]

time to say f the law, hell ill go to jail for it whos with me

Overspeed is spineless and will sell out his so-called union brothers! He's the typical TWU stooge that will fight like hell to save his own soul. Remember the bar fight....overspeed forgot to tell you that Bob and the "no voters" had baseball bats in hand, ready to do some damage, but overspeed and his spineless buddies at the TWU ran home to mama.

 

[Overspeed]

Overspeed is spineless and will sell out his so-called union brothers! He's the typical TWU stooge that will fight like hell to save his own soul. Remember the bar fight....overspeed forgot to tell you that Bob and the "no voters" had baseball bats in hand, ready to do some damage, but overspeed and his spineless buddies at the TWU ran home to mama.

Foam bats? Wiffle ball bats?

 

[Buck]

Foam bats? Wiffle ball bats?

No bats filled with sand from where the line was drawn.

Hiss Hiss

 

[Bob Owens]

Question for Bob since he is the only leader with balls. If there was to be an unapproved action to take a stand who would take charge, I've said all along to my co-workers the only way to fix things is to break the law. Hell I would love to spend the night in jail for our cause but im a nobody who would follow me. Its time for our leaders to grow a set, I think they would be very surprised how much support they have I will fight like hell for a strong leader. Just my thoughts

I feel that the courts have left us no options other than to go illegal. Either we are to be treated like workers under the RLA and included in 1167 or we are to be treated like workers under the NLRA and be allowed to strike if they impose new terms. Its intolerable to impose all the restictions of a law without the corresponding protections. Its like throwing a boxer into the ring with his hands tied behind his back and his shoes laced together, its not a fair match.

When Continental went BK and abrogated the contracts the Unions went on strike. No "oh you cant use self help, even though the company did, until you exhaust the Section 6 process" (which back then averaged around 3 months instead of three years), no BS about how the contract "never existed". It was clear, Continental unilaterally changed wages and working conditions and under the RLA you can strike when that happens. The courts had already decided that Sect 1167 only applied to Railroads under the RLA, I have no information on the reasoning.

What happened to really screw us up was an appellate court decided that they were going to cherry pick parts of the two laws in a way that screwed over workers. They would treat Airline workers the same as workers under the NLRA as far as allowing a company to abrogate the contract, but unlike workers under the NLRA they could no longer defend themselves and Strike despite the fact that Continental had already set the precedence (the difference was that Continental wanted the workers to strike, so the courts allowed it). They ruled that under C-11 airline contract termination is not really an abrogation as it is under the NLRA, in other words like a divorce, an agreement that once existed but no longer exists, but for airline workers termination in C-11was instead much more extreme it was an annulment, a declaration that the agreement never legally existed, because it was fraudulent or enterred into illegally, and because it never existed that Airline Labor Unions that have their contracts abrogated in C-11 are left with all the restrictions that the RLA impose as if they had never negotiated a contract before but none of the protections. Not only is the slate wiped clean, the slate never existed. Clearly this was, for lack of a better way of saying it, "a f****d up ruling". Combine this with the fact that there is no means test for filing for C-11 for legal persons who are corporations, unlike legal persons who are people, and it give Airlines a huge advantage over unions. In reality it nullifies any reason to really engage in collevtive bargaining, string out the Mediation process for as long as you can, all the while the company enjoys the benefoits of status quo, in the AA case 4 years, then when it looks like you are running out of time, such as the NMB saying they really cant justifying delaying a release much longer you file BK. In reality there is nothing stopping a profitable company from doing the same thing, and they can be pretty blatent about it, Aa filed with $4 billion and hostess recently filed, much like Continental did in 1983 with the sole intent to use BK as a means to void labor agreements (but at least the Hostess workers can strike).

We are already at the bottom of the industry and the company is demanding another 20% more from us and even if they made a billion in profits theres nothing stopping them from filing c-11 and petitioning the courts from imposing new terms on us while we are prohibited from striking, add into that mix a NMB where the Chief Mediator comes from an organization thats sole purpose is to help airlines "control" labor costs(Aircon) and its pretty clear that as long as Airline workers stay legal they will have zero input into setting wages and working conditions with the exception of just giving up and leaving the industry. Unions have to be willing to assert their right to strike, the Airlines cant be permitted to have it both ways, freedom to abrogate contracts as if we were under the NLRA and the restrictions as far as self help per the RLA based upon the falacy of an annulment.

The courts did what they did because they knew they would get away with it. Lets face it Judges have no allegience to working people. Airlines are just as critical to commerce as RailRoads, they dont mess with the Railroads because they know that if they tried to do something like this it would blow up in their face, the Railroad workers would shut it down and even go to jail if they had to-thats how the RLA was put in place.

Everything we are going through has happened before, in the Railroads. The same things, regulation, Government subsidies, deregulation, overcapacity, bankruptcies, liquidations and reorganizations. The Railroad owners had just as many friends in the goverment and in the courthouses as the airlines do, the difference is Rail workers time and time again ignored them both and shut things down, they went illegal until the government had enough and had the Unions and the Railroads get together and craft the RLA. Putting rail workers in jail did not improve commerce, as distateful as it may have been to them they had to deal on a level playing field with the Unions because even with the law on their side they could not stop the interuptions. So yes the purpose was to leave commerce uninterupted but if commerce was not interupted the RLA never would have come into existance, Rail workers would not enjoy the protections they have to this day if they had not proven that they would be willing to break the law and interupt commerce if the application of the law was done unfairly.. If we want similar protections we have to interupt commerce in defense of our rights. Their greed and desire to oppress created this condition, not us. If we want to be treated equitably under the law as either workers under the NLRA or workers under the RLA we will not get there by complying with the law because those who crafted their interpretation clearly were not interested in equality or fairness, they were interested in getting the airline what it wanted.

 

[Bob Owens]

I agree with you. We are weak and we all, ALL, bear responsibility.

We weren't prepared properly.

Where was the education for what could and could not happen?

Where was the financial planning for the strike or potential job loss?

All we got was a lot of posturing from Bob and advice to take money out of our 401k's. Really? That's it?

What happened to all that talk about personal responsibility? Are you flip flopping? Which is it, we ALL bear responsibility or someine should have prepared us and spoonfed us an education?

You should have started preparing in 2003, or did you actually believe that the company was going to give it all back in 2006 with the early openers?

How many years do you have with the company? You didnt know that there is no strike fund, you are supposed to prepare yourself but instead you expect someone to take your hand and prepare you to strike, to tell you what could happen, you sound like a child. How is it you have a whole post on how we all made our choices and are responsible for the condition we find ourselves in then within days you put out a whiney post like this saying that nobody took you by the hand and explained the facts of life in a union to you?

 

[Overspeed]

What happened to all that talk about personal responsibility? Are you flip flopping? Which is it, we ALL bear responsibility or someine should have prepared us and spoonfed us an education?

You should have started preparing in 2003, or did you actually believe that the company was going to give it all back in 2006 with the early openers?

How many years do you have with the company? You didnt know that there is no strike fund, you are supposed to prepare yourself but instead you expect someone to take your hand and prepare you to strike, to tell you what could happen, you sound like a child. How is it you have a whole post on how we all made our choices and are responsible for the condition we find ourselves in then within days you put out a whiney post like this saying that nobody took you by the hand and explained the facts of life in a union to you?

Whiney? I agreed with what someone said. Are your feeling bruised? Embrace your inner child Bob.

We ALL made choices and we all bear responsibility. That's called being an adult. Being a child is not accepting responsibility for one's action such as yourself. But keep trying he displacement and attacks that still do not alter your flawed logic. You are wrong and will never admit for if you did now, you would open yourself up to actually owning the lies you put up on this blog.

I have been with AA for longer than you and if this becomes a gas and go, I will still be here. I am disgusted with your "I want it all or I will burn it down" approach. And you call me the child? That sounds like a little boy that didn't get what he asked for so he is going to smash it so nobody can get it. Do you need a hug lil' Bobby?

 

[Frank Szabo]

What happened to all that talk about personal responsibility? Are you flip flopping? Which is it, we ALL bear responsibility or someine should have prepared us and spoonfed us an education?

You should have started preparing in 2003, or did you actually believe that the company was going to give it all back in 2006 with the early openers?

How many years do you have with the company? You didnt know that there is no strike fund, you are supposed to prepare yourself but instead you expect someone to take your hand and prepare you to strike, to tell you what could happen, you sound like a child. How is it you have a whole post on how we all made our choices and are responsible for the condition we find ourselves in then within days you put out a whiney post like this saying that nobody took you by the hand and explained the facts of life in a union to you?

All one has to do is look over the last few years of LM2s - had numerous individuals been paid what they were worth (letting those they truly represent make up the difference re: what "they" think they're worth) there could have been one helluva strike fund for the membership.

The best way to win this game is to not play.

 

[Overspeed]

No bats filled with sand from where the line was drawn.

Hiss Hiss

Is that line like Khadafy's Line of Death?

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Whiney? I agreed with what someone said. Are your feeling bruised? Embrace your inner child Bob.

We ALL made choices and we all bear responsibility. That's called being an adult. Being a child is not accepting responsibility for one's action such as yourself. But keep trying he displacement and attacks that still do not alter your flawed logic. You are wrong and will never admit for if you did now, you would open yourself up to actually owning the lies you put up on this blog.

I have been with AA for longer than you and if this becomes a gas and go, I will still be here. I am disgusted with your "I want it all or I will burn it down" approach. And you call me the child? That sounds like a little boy that didn't get what he asked for so he is going to smash it so nobody can get it. Do you need a hug lil' Bobby?

adult choices you speak of? where are your adult choices in the last 30 years of concessionary contracts? since you are the senior one in the group you claim, where was your great leadership and stickimg your neck out for the future? seems to me like you failed to provide the skills and leadership going forward. I have never heard of you before during all the strifes in my last 21 years or maybe so if i knew who you are. you have alot to say about everyone else and we know nothing about you. Maybe we should call you overspeed and under committed.


and as far as turning down the 2010 TA, once and for all, that was just a promise if we all settled. Knowing what we know now, that 2010 TA never would have seen the light of day, how could that have saved jobs! So do us all a favor and stop blaming Bob for the bankruptcy and make him the scapegoat for the TWU who is failing once again and who will bring the whole industry down again. the ramp guys had a TA and that did not help them. Overspeed you should send an apology letter now to Continental,United, SWA,US air, Fedex, jetblue,alaska employees and apologize that when their next contract comes up they will use ours as the hammer to force concessions from their contracts again. Congrats we are a leader in something.

aren't we tired of being the leading concessionary union in the industry, I am, Bob Owens is, my local 562 board is. apparently some of you are Ok with it.

It is sad when Delta management tells their mechanics with pride that "they don't need a union, look what their doing to them and they pay dues for it, You do better without a union" the TWU will never be able to organize anyone if this goes through!


Overspeed do your self a favor and speak from yourself, your accomplishments, and your ideas going forward and stop being only a critic of others. Blaming Bob is just getting old and stale.

 

[Hopeful]

Blaming Bob is just getting old and stale.

What's getting old and stale is Bob preaching to us that we are better off liquidating. Is Bob going to pay my mortgage? Healtchare? College tuition?
Please spare us the "WE SHOULD'VE BEEN PREPARING FOR A STRIKE IN 2003.!


How the hell do you expect people to survive in this economy when they have to pay bills, raise a family, keep the roof over their heads AND still bank tens of thousands of dollars so they may STRIKE one day? I don't need him or anyone telling me that I should prepare for a strike fund when I have to take care of my family. And don't reply that unless we fight for our careers, we will never get the money we deserve...WE ARE DONE! FINITO! GAME OVER!

Where do you suggest the 550 or so mechanics in NY are going to get jobS? Are we all going to the MTA? JetBlue? Delta? SWA? UPS? Where are all these mechanics going to find work, let alone the 4000 or so more that will lose their jobs as a result of bankrupty?

The reality of it all is that are NOT that many jobs out there for ANYONE! So we should sink AA and go reset the clock at another company that most likely will not pay what even we earn now, most likely no pension and similiar healthcare costs just to name a few.

If Bob thinks he is going to be the pied piper and get people to follow him off a cliff, he is sadly mistaken.

At the end of the day, we all need to pay our bills and feed our families, and yes even under the new conditions we will find ourselves working under..

This once proud career has seen its hey day......It's over now, we will never attain what we once thought we would.

Move on or move along!