TWU negotiations.........what?

[AMFAMAN]

I agree with you, but it's not just maintenance. Bankruptcy (or avoiding bankruptcy) no longer hinges on labor costs. Not of any one workgroup and not overall labor costs.

I totally understand that labor costs are looked at as a whole, but when some posters go off about labor costs with emphasis on productivity and work rules, I have to remind them that the twu/aa maintenance and related workgroup have always had the worst work rules in the industry, and our productivity per AA is up 37% since 2003.
But with that said, I realize that all of maintenances efforts will be for not in bankruptcy, or in the current negotiations, as the twu will be looking to minimize the damage for all their workgroups by using the maintenance cost savings, and dividing up its worth among all their workgroups.
The recently twu intl. endorsed concessionary extension is a perfect example, as everyone got the same, including the twu dispatchers whom all 100 of them have been negotiating for almost 2 years already.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

I usually agree with your posts but not with this one. IMO, labor could agree to work for half price (cut wages in half on June 30) and AMR would still post large losses this year and next, and bankruptcy would happen anyway (unless fuel drops by half to 2/3). If fuel stays high or goes higher, bankruptcy is just around the corner no matter what happens in labor negotiations. Labor could agree to another $1.62 billion of annual concessions and it wouldn't prevent bankruptcy. Labor costs no longer matter.

Unfortunately, ya don't visit bankruptcy without whacking labor contracts, so the work rules and wages will be gutted.

What will keep management from agreeing to large wage increases is the fact that large raises would just deplete the cash balance all the faster, and the remote (but real) possibility of a derivative suit if management agreed to large labor increases when it was experiencing negative operating cash flow.

You've certainly done your homework with AA's numbers and know them better than I do, so I'm not claiming perfect future-telling here; the difference is that we're operating from different assumptions. I don't assume that an AA bk is inevitable. With all the talk in that other thread about unrestricted cash, (4.5 billion, was it?) unencumbered assets and potential sales of AAdvantage and Eagle I'd think any bankruptcy could be preventable if the labor groups gave the company a breather for a year or two while the fuel market rationalizes. And I think it will rationalize somewhere under $100/barrel.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

When I refer to labor cost, I've referring to my workgroup, maintenance. BTW...what happened to your praise of 4 days ago:

No change in my praise; you guys turned a cost-center into a revenue center for AA and that deserves recognition and reward. It's also my opinion that AA can avoid bankruptcy with a little flexibility from labor, which would lead to a better long-term outcome for everyone.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

But of course, executive pay is never calculated in the company's "LABOR" expense pie chart.

Let me ask u this, FFCA: Why are the executives not flexible in their contract with the company?

They probably should be. As others have noted, management pay does have a variable aspect to it, and right now that variable (company stocK) is in the toilet so it's not exactly a super rewarding contract provision at the moment. And do try to think beyond the guys making 500,000+ (there aren't that many of them). Lots of managers at AA are hard-working, middle class people with lots of obligations - mortgages, health insurance college tuition, etc. - the same types of obligations you all have and are struggling to meet. It would be interesting to know what their real average wage is right now with the stock where it is.

In the end, though, there is going to have to be major change to the way pay is apportioned at your company. It's my opinion that everybody should be tied to the ship when it comes to "bonuses" or "payouts". Profits = everyone sharing rewards; Losses = everyone sharing the pain. Not this silly system now of comparing the company's performance to peers in an industry making record losses.

 

[Bob Owens]

Lots of managers at AA are hard-working, middle class people with lots of obligations - mortgages, health insurance college tuition, etc. - the same types of obligations you all have and are struggling to meet. It would be interesting to know what their real average wage is right now with the stock where it is.

In the end, though, there is going to have to be major change to the way pay is apportioned at your company. It's my opinion that everybody should be tied to the ship when it comes to "bonuses" or "payouts". Profits = everyone sharing rewards; Losses = everyone sharing the pain. Not this silly system now of comparing the company's performance to peers in an industry making record losses.

I think that most of us realize that lower level management is more like us than those that sit in the boardroom.

According to the company website :

"The Board establishes as a target the middle of the market for comparable positions within and outside the airline industry. In order words, about half of other corporate executives make more than AA executives and half make less. "

However when mechanics mention the wages at UPS both the TWU and AMR say that we should not compare ourselves to A&Ps at UPS because they dont fly passengers. AMR and the TWU even claim that we cant compare our wages to SWA, which is in the same industry because they are aren't a trunk carrier.

Management should be held to the same standards as the workers. If pay increases to workers are given on the basis of whether or not the company feels they can afford it then it should be the same for management. Management should be at the very least expected to make as much of a committment to the long term success of the compnay as the workers.

 

[bigdawg52]

I think that most of us realize that lower level management is more like us than those that sit in the boardroom.

According to the company website :

"The Board establishes as a target the middle of the market for comparable positions within and outside the airline industry. In order words, about half of other corporate executives make more than AA executives and half make less. "

However when mechanics mention the wages at UPS both the TWU and AMR say that we should not compare ourselves to A&Ps at UPS because they dont fly passengers. AMR and the TWU even claim that we cant compare our wages to SWA, which is in the same industry because they are aren't a trunk carrier.

Management should be held to the same standards as the workers. If pay increases to workers are given on the basis of whether or not the company feels they can afford it then it should be the same for management. Management should be at the very least expected to make as much of a committment to the long term success of the compnay as the workers.

Nice post Bob,

But I will say this one thing mgmt, will always get theirs. No matter what me you or anyone else says or does. As far as the lower rank and file mgmt. They are like me and you(take the crap). This company in my opinion, is as effective as they are because of the employees around them(me and you).

As I have said before on other posts. The gave upper magmt. retention bonus's(why) to keep these so called experts in and emplyed at this company. But yet I know many college(it really does not matter) grads, or employees, that have attended college that can an probably would do a better job than what we have at this juncture.

My saying is as always has been, you get a better knowledge of a company when you start from the ground up.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

As I have said before on other posts. They gave upper magmt. retention bonus's(why) to keep these so called experts in and employed at this company.



Retention bonuses for what I say! The biggest mistake made was not fuel hedging properly by the so called experts. The CFO i believe is responsible for fuel hedging. That was Arpey and now Horton. Both have failed at the biggest problem facing the company and have recieved bonuses for accomplishing very little for our future.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

It is sad to say but:

An inmates last day of his 30 year sentence recieves a better send off than an American Airlines Mechanic last day of work.

 

[aafsc]

As I have said before on other posts. They gave upper magmt. retention bonus's(why) to keep these so called experts in and employed at this company.



Retention bonuses for what I say! The biggest mistake made was not fuel hedging properly by the so called experts. The CFO i believe is responsible for fuel hedging. That was Arpey and now Horton. Both have failed at the biggest problem facing the company and have recieved bonuses for accomplishing very little for our future.

Does your brother still work for DL? If so, you had better tell him to stop because since he makes less, pays more for medical, has had his DB pension frozen, and has no union work rules (no union contract) he is contributing to destruction of the profession. Also, DL's CEO makes more than AA's CEO (made in 3 months what Arpey made in one year even after deferring his merger pay). As for fuel hedging, AA is the best hedged among the 6 legacies. But suppose AA had hedged (bet) a lot more and the price of oil dropped (or drops); you and others would be on here screaming at management for hedging too much. Since you think it is so easy, I take it you became rich by playing the oil futures market?

 

[aafsc]

It is sad to say but:

An inmates last day of his 30 year sentence recieves a better send off than an American Airlines Mechanic last day of work.

Maybe in your station that is true but not necessarily system wide. In some of the areas I have worked, AA has given out pins and bought cakes for an employee's years of service. While I appreciated the gesture, I don't expect (or demand) it. They pay me to do a job and that is what I do. I don't need my a$$ kissed or my ego stroked. I fulfill my end of the employment agreement and that's it. At the appropriate time, I punch out and go home.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Does your brother still work for DL? If so, you had better tell him to stop because since he makes less, pays more for medical, has had his DB pension frozen, and has no union work rules (no union contract) he is contributing to destruction of the profession. Also, DL's CEO makes more than AA's CEO (made in 3 months what Arpey made in one year even after deferring his merger pay). As for fuel hedging, AA is the best hedged among the 6 legacies. But suppose AA had hedged (bet) a lot more and the price of oil dropped (or drops); you and others would be on here screaming at management for hedging too much. Since you think it is so easy, I take it you became rich by playing the oil futures market?

Yes my brother still works for Delta and he stuck his neck out attempting to get a union and a contract at the non-union airline. I give him alot of credit for trying due to the intense pressure he was under and his job being threatened. How many people like yourself have stuck their neck out that far? you don't even use your own name!

You can defend management all you want union guy. But I stand by what I say. I am held accountable for my responsibilities and recieve nothing for it. Management recieves retention bonuses for not being held accountable when they make mistakes and blame labor for their problems. How did southwest figure it out over the last 6 years? Did they have a crystal ball?
Saying AA is the best of the legacies carriers does not hold weight, you are only saying that other airlines executive are worse in their decision making and by how much?

 

[aafsc]

Yes my brother still works for Delta and he stuck his neck out attempting to get a union and a contract at the non-union airline. I give him alot of credit for trying due to the intense pressure he was under and his job being threatened. How many people like yourself have stuck their neck out that far? you don't even use your own name!

You can defend management all you want union guy. But I stand by what I say. I am held accountable for my responsibilities and recieve nothing for it. Management recieves retention bonuses for not being held accountable when they make mistakes and blame labor for their problems. How did southwest figure it out over the last 6 years? Did they have a crystal ball?
Saying AA is the best of the legacies carriers does not hold weight, you are only saying that other airlines executive are worse in their decision making and by how much?

"I give him alot of credit for trying due to the intense pressure he was under and his job being threatened"

I also commend his efforts but with DL's traditional southern non-union mentality added to the AMT strike breakers that will be arriving shortly from NW, he's got an uphill battle.


"How many people like yourself have stuck their neck out that far?

Never worked at a non-union airline but I did walk the EAL picket line.


"you don't even use your own name!"

99% of the people here don't.


"You can defend management all you want union guy."

I defend them when they make the right decisions and am harshly critical of them when they screw up (TWA).


"But I stand by what I say."

So do I.


"I am held accountable for my responsibilities and recieve nothing for it."

Then why do you even show up for work? Nobody works for nothing.


"Management recieves retention bonuses for not being held accountable when they make mistakes"

Sounds like the compensation committee of the board of directors are overly generous. When a ramper or mechanic screws up and damages an aircraft, is their compensation reduced or are they fired?

"and blame labor for their problems."

Never heard them blame us for TWA, $140/barrel oil, or anything else for that matter.


"How did southwest figure it out over the last 6 years?"

They gambled and won.


"Did they have a crystal ball?"

If they do it is a very good one. Maybe they will lease it to AA.

"Saying AA is the best of the legacies does not hold weight"

Yes it does when comparing wages, benefits, scope, and retirement promises kept (pension, retiree medical, ect.).

"you are only saying that other airlines executive are worse in their decision making"

Yes they are.

"and by how much?"

Lots because they are compensated a lot more for their substandard performance relative to that of AA management.

 

[Bob Owens]

Does your brother still work for DL? If so, you had better tell him to stop because since he makes less, pays more for medical, has had his DB pension frozen, and has no union work rules (no union contract) he is contributing to destruction of the profession.

What does that have to do with anything? I beleieve his brother was hired at TWU represented PAN Am and was retained after Delta purchased Pan Am. I've worked non-union and the work rules and conditions werent much different than what the TWU suposedly got for us. I doubt anyone from Pan Am who is now at Delta wishes they had to pay dues to the TWU.

As for fuel hedging, AA is the best hedged among the 6 legacies. But suppose AA had hedged (bet) a lot more and the price of oil dropped (or drops); you and others would be on here screaming at management for hedging too much. Since you think it is so easy, I take it you became rich by playing the oil futures market?

They are paid to make sure the company makes money, we are paid to fix airplanes, they havent been doing their job, the fact that they screwed up on hedging is only one of the many mistakes they made such as but not limited to purchasing TWA, building several billion dollar terminals throughout the system, cutting wages, half pay sick days which results in more sick time paid out instead of less, etc etc.

 

[DallasConehead]

"You can defend management all you want union guy."

I defend them when they make the right decisions and am harshly critical of them when they screw up (TWA).

"Management recieves retention bonuses for not being held accountable when they make mistakes"

Sounds like the compensation committee of the board of directors are overly generous. When a ramper or mechanic screws up and damages an aircraft, is their compensation reduced or are they fired?

"and blame labor for their problems."

Never heard them blame us for TWA, $140/barrel oil, or anything else for that matter.

Company Stooge....... Why do you guys bother with him?

 

[bigdawg52]

Company Stooge....... Why do you guys bother with him?

Because he has an opinion, as you do. Take off the blinders, and try to think outside your little box :down: