TWU negotiations.........what?

[strikeforce]

Yet some here believe your collective bargaining agent, the TWU engineers concessionary agreements for AA.

Josh

The TWU leadership are the salesmen for AA.

 

[TWU informer]

Informer,

If you believe in voluntarily giving AA another handout, then do it......and, while I certainly can't speak for others, I WILL NOT give American Airlines another dime Voluntarily......they will have to steal it from me through the courts. And, I'm sure they will do that. I'm only one vote out of 11,000.....if the majority feels like you do.....I'm screwed, and if the majority feels like I do....I'm screwed, so what's the difference.

The last time WE voluntarily gave this company our hard earned money the company bought a 30M townhouse in London, lavishly provided themselves with bonuses and drove this company to BK. I'm not handing a financially reckless management team another dime. Got it!!!!!

I see now, you have srewed yourself by listening to and following idiots, and so now you intend to screw everyone else on your way down.

Why don't you take you miserable attitude, miserable victimized life, and move on without screwing everyone else on your way out the door?

You "strike" me as the type of person that has caused management to feel a need to increase security.

BTW, the townhouse was purchased long before you gave away the farm.

 

[737823]

The TWU leadership are the salesmen for AA.

Regardless of how you or anyone else feels, the fact of the matter is you have no leverage and were unable to reach an agreement before with the company. The courts control the process from here on out, and AAs labor disadvantage is clear. Concessions will now be IMPOSED and you'll have no recourse.

Josh

 

[Mr Red]

I see now, you have srewed yourself by listening to and following idiots, and so now you intend to screw everyone else on your way down.

Why don't you take you miserable attitude, miserable victimized life, and move on without screwing everyone else on your way out the door?

You "strike" me as the type of person that has caused management to feel a need to increase security.

BTW, the townhouse was purchased long before you gave away the farm.

Our Toolbox rolls out the same way it rolled in.Alot of us still have time to salvage another final career at another company.
Just waiting for the final curtain.Thats all.

 

[strikeforce]

I see now, you have screwed yourself by listening to and following idiots, and so now you intend to screw everyone else on your way down.

Why don't you take you miserable attitude, miserable victimized life, and move on without screwing everyone else on your way out the door?

You "strike" me as the type of person that has caused management to feel a need to increase security.

BTW, the townhouse was purchased long before you gave away the farm.

No. I don't screw myself by listening to idiots like you. I screwed myself when I applied for American Airlines in 1989 and was forced to join a union filled with one-ways, and at the mercy of mechanics that don't live in Chicago. AA has nothing to worry about me because I've lasted over 20 years without turning people into HR, abusing sick time or threatening anybody at work.

Informer, you're right and everyone else is wrong because WE don't agree with your views. And, if we don't agree with your views we're all criminals, active shooters and people that would require AA ankle bracelets. Well let me tell you something, I hope AA doesn't require AMT's to administer to psyche tests because AA would have to build asylums to house paranoid people like you instead of hangars.

 

[FWAAA]

In other airline bankruptcies, has there been any incentive for workgroups to reach agreement with the company prior to a motion to abrogate?

In other words, if you vote no, and the company successfully abrogates the contract, would you be any worse off?

I would assume that reaching agreement would permit you to choose from a menu of concessions while abrogation would result in the company imposing its mix of concessions.

 

[strikeforce]

Regardless of how you or anyone else feels, the fact of the matter is you have no leverage and were unable to reach an agreement before with the company. The courts control the process from here on out, and AAs labor disadvantage is clear. Concessions will now be IMPOSED and you'll have no recourse.

Josh

I'm not disputing anything you said. AA will have to IMPOSE those concessions on me through the courts. You're right!!!!!

I'm not voting YES to more concessions, if the other 10,999 are willing to do that, so be it......what don't YOU understand?????

 

[TWU informer]

The desire for control also seems to make people more susceptible to depression under some circumstances. In research reported in the Journal of Personality, Dr. Burger found that people with a high desire for control are more susceptible than others to bouts of mild depression, particulary when they feel that they have lost control over events in their lives.

Dr. Burger's finding elaborates on earlier work by Martin Seligman of the University of Pennsylvania, who has found that, in general, people come to feel hopeless and helpless when faced with repeated traumatic events over which they have little or no control. Dr. Burger found that the higher the need to feel in control, the more depression is likely in the face of frustrating, inescapable events.

Such effects seem to grow with age and may explain, for example, why the elderly are often adversely affected when they have to move, according to Dr. Rodin. She cites a study of elderly people who were involuntarily moved from their homes in a deteriorating neighborhood into federally subsidized housing. Although the housing was better, the group experienced more hospitalizations, admissions to nursing homes admissions, and a greater incidence of stroke and chest pains from heart disease, than did a group of elderly people who did not move.

 

[strikeforce]

The desire for control also seems to make people more susceptible to depression under some circumstances. In research reported in the Journal of Personality, Dr. Burger found that people with a high desire for control are more susceptible than others to bouts of mild depression, particulary when they feel that they have lost control over events in their lives.

Dr. Burger's finding elaborates on earlier work by Martin Seligman of the University of Pennsylvania, who has found that, in general, people come to feel hopeless and helpless when faced with repeated traumatic events over which they have little or no control. Dr. Burger found that the higher the need to feel in control, the more depression is likely in the face of frustrating, inescapable events.

Such effects seem to grow with age and may explain, for example, why the elderly are often adversely affected when they have to move, according to Dr. Rodin. She cites a study of elderly people who were involuntarily moved from their homes in a deteriorating neighborhood into federally subsidized housing. Although the housing was better, the group experienced more hospitalizations, admissions to nursing homes admissions, and a greater incidence of stroke and chest pains from heart disease, than did a group of elderly people who did not move.

You have an appointment with Dr. Burger on Wednesday at Centrepork. Good luck to you!!! lol

 

[Birdman]

In other airline bankruptcies, has there been any incentive for workgroups to reach agreement with the company prior to a motion to abrogate?

In other words, if you vote no, and the company successfully abrogates the contract, would you be any worse off?

A mechanics' agreement must still be ratified by the 7,000 mechanics at United, a unit of UAL Corp. They rejected the last tentative agreement in January, with 57 percent voting no.

The company and unions are trying to wrap up deals before Judge Eugene Wedoff rules on United's motion to replace existing contracts with lower pay and benefits.

United finished presenting its case on Monday, and Wedoff scheduled closing arguments in the trial for Thursday.

United, the second-largest U.S. airline, is seeking annual wage and benefit cuts totaling $176 million from machinists and $96 million from mechanics as part of targeted labor savings of $700 million yearly. It says it needs the second round of cutbacks in two years so it can persuade banks to lend it $2 billion to help it leave Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

If you compare UA's rejected t/a along with Wedoff's 9.8% temporary wage cut in January of 05 with the accepted t/a it appears the furniture was just rearranged so no, we may not be better off.

At this time AA has enough cash to emerge from BK so an abbreviated walk through the courts would be to our benefit.

 

[Bob Owens]

Regardless of how you or anyone else feels, the fact of the matter is you have no leverage and were unable to reach an agreement before with the company. The courts control the process from here on out, and AAs labor disadvantage is clear. Concessions will now be IMPOSED and you'll have no recourse.

Josh

We always have recourse, as long as companies need us we have recourse. The courts control the process but the workers control the movement of aircraft, and that's where the real power is.

Look at history, the RLA was formed because despite the fact that the government had outlawed every tactic that unions used to level the playing field rail workers kept shutting down the system. The industry and government realized that there really isn't anything they could do about Wilcat actions, sickouts, refusals to work OT, sit downs, work to rule etc. Rail workers, who went through the same things we are going through, over expansion, bankruptcies and then contraction, fought back, rulings, injunctions be damned. They did not sit back and wait to be told what to do because they knew the courts had made it so the leaders could not tell them to do it. Workers knew they had to act, then , realizing they had no control, the Rails would approach the leaders to get things moving again, the leaders would make the deal, tell the workers what transpired and if the workers found it acceptable things would move again but there was no guarantee that pockets here or there would not still resist. So the government had the leaders of the industry and the unions sit and write the RLA. The law put restrictions on our right to strike in exchange for guarantees that we would not work under imposed agreements unless first the President heard our case and then Congress, but the company could not unilaterally impose terms! Not even with the aid of a friendly Judge.

Rail workers are very cognizant of their history, and have proven that they will defend their hard fought for rights so the industry and their puppets in government are much more hesitant to mess with them. In the rails they live by the wording of the RLA and those workers would never allow a Judge to strip them of their rights. The RLA is clear, workers can't strike as long as negotiated wages and working conditions remained, however if those things are unilaterally changed then they can strike. 1167 of the BK code states that even in Bankruptcy labor contracts covered under the Railway Labor Act can not be abrogated in Bankruptcy, they have to follow the RLA, however in another clause they excluded airlines from this provision. So what airline workers are left with is all the limitations of the RLA but none of the protections, kind of like the way African-Americans had to pay the same fare as everyone else but could only sit in the back of he bus. As long as we tolerate this things will only get worse.

When the quacks at the appellate court ruled that the NWA flight attendants could not strike because their contract never existed, despite the fact that it existed fr 50 years or more and in clear violation of the RLA the company changed wages and working conditions (the authors of he RLA did not introduce any ambiguity there, no exceptions for BK) the airline unions should have banded together and threatened to shut down the whole country, thats what the rail workers would have done, that's what he dock workers would have done. Things will keep getting worse for airline workers as long as they keep doing what they are told and keep giving the bosses what they want. Rosa Parks did not wait for a Judge to tell her that it was ok for her to sit in the front, we should not wait for a Judge to tell us when its ok to resort to self help, the RLA already told us that, the law is flawed, it is discriminatory against Airline workers for no other reason than they feel they can get away with it. How can we be expected to obey a body that says because we are Airline workers we are subject to all the restrictions of the law but none of the protections of the same law? Like Rosa Parks we paid our fare and we will get the same treatment and opportunity as anyone else.

Airline workers must put an end to this injustice.. Workers at other carriers must join together and have the law changed, the RLA is clear, we have the right to strike if terms are imposed on us without being given the opportunity to present our case in a fair forum, ie the PEB and then Congress, but we have to fight for it. If The cycle is allowed to continue and another carrier is successful at lowering the bar yet again there is nothing stopping every other carrier from going into BK every time their labor contracts become amendable and having the courts get them what negotiations could not. If the government continues to act in such a biased, pro-corporate way then they no longer deserved to be recognized as a government of the people, by the people, for the people and the people must disobey them.

 

[Bob Owens]

If you compare UA's rejected t/a along with Wedoff's 9.8% temporary wage cut in January of 05 with the accepted t/a it appears the furniture was just rearranged so no, we may not be better off.

At this time AA has enough cash to emerge from BK so an abbreviated walk through the courts would be to our benefit.

Let's look at what happened back then.
I believe UAL settled their post 9-11 contract after we did. They were to top out at $38/hr in 2004. So either late 2001 or early 2002 they settled their deal with a increase of over 30 %.

In late 2002 UAL files for Bk, and immediately applies for a temporary 14% paycut. USAir had already filed for bk in iirc August of 2002.

In January the court imposes the temporary 14% paycut.

In April UAL gets a TA for 13% from the mechanics, the mechanics got 1% back. Later that month, outside of Bk AA gets an agreement to slash wages by 17% and cut holidays, vacation, sick time, medical benefits ,OT for at least a 25% paycut.

The creditors of UAL, no doubt after seeing what the largest carrier in the country got, decide to reject the deal with the mechanics and they go back for more.

In 2005 they get agreements from their mechanics with more concessions, terminate the pensions and leave bk. In 2012 they get back some of what they gave up and settle a two and a half year contract that brings their highest paid mechanics just over $40hr by July of 2012 along with an $11500 signing bonus and a $75,000 early out incentive.

We screwed the whole industry when we undercut the concessions other carriers had to go to bk to get. IMHO things probably would have settled with the pensions dumped, retiree medical switched to sick time paid and minimal wage cuts had we followed the rest of he industry into bk back in 2003. IMHO most of our competitors would have kept more of their oh in house as well but once we cut so deep there was no way they could compete with AA because AA had OSMs in place, how could they expect to go from $37/hr with good benefits to $20/hr with crappy benefits in one fell swoop and still get anything out of them? When we folded like we did the 1% ers were no doubt high fiveing each other. It was beyond their wildest dreams and the beginning of our nightmare, our nightmares will continue until we start giving them nightmares.

 

[TWU informer]

"Must continue to believe we are better off now"
"Must continue to believe we are better off now"
"Must continue to believe we are better off now"

"We are still powerful and in control"
"We are still powerful and in control"
"We are still powerful and in control"

"There is no place like home"
"There is no place like home"
"There is no place like home"

Unfrigginbelievable!
Some folks problems come from reading history books and believing we are still in those times.

 

[odie01]

"
Unfrigginbelievable!
Some folks problems come from reading history books and believing we are still in those times.

Agreed,
Also, some folks problems stem from being addicted to the Internet, and letting situations that are out of their control run their life..

 

[TWU informer]

Airline workers must put an end to this injustice.. Workers at other carriers must join together and have the law changed, the RLA is clear, we have the right to strike if terms are imposed on us without being given the opportunity to present our case in a fair forum, ie the PEB and then Congress, but we have to fight for it. If The cycle is allowed to continue and another carrier is successful at lowering the bar yet again there is nothing stopping every other carrier from going into BK every time their labor contracts become amendable and having the courts get them what negotiations could not. If the government continues to act in such a biased, pro-corporate way then they no longer deserved to be recognized as a government of the people, by the people, for the people and the people must disobey them.

Isn't that what the AFL-CIO is suppose to be doing Bob? Dismantle the AFL-CIO and the idea that we even stand a chance in this game of who has the most influence (money), and get back to basics of old, and then dismantle the selfish I've got mine attitude of union men and women, and then you might stand a chance. Otherwise, keep riding and writing, that is all you have. Problem is the majority of the AFL-CIO are employed by the same system (government workers) that is controlled by money and they are not going to bite the hand feeding them. And each year more workers are becoming dependent on Government Entitlements like Social Security, MediCare, Unemployment, Section 8 Housing, Food Stamps, ect. They are not going to rise either Bob.

What we really have now is Government For the Money, By the Money, and of the Money.

Getting Laws changed to favor workers is old hat from outdated history, and is exactly the root of the farce that got us here to begin with. But those leading are living comfortable, enjoying bumping elbows with those that perpetuate the problem, and they are not going to risk changing that to help the likes of you and me.

As long as the selfish needs of one group are being somewhat met compared to others, they are willing to let the other groups be decimated, just look at the Line vs Overhaul debate on this forum for a perfect small example. I think now we are going to sacrfice the unskilled so the skilled can have enough to keep them in a tolerable living condition. And many of them also voted NO seeking a better deal.

Until the water is touching everyone's nuts at the same time, nothing is going to happen about the boat sinking, and as long as we are divided into different union structures and one group being treated just a little better than the other group, you are living a pipe dream if you think this is going to change.

I believe there will come a day when lawless renegades will be the norm, but that will not happen until it is too late, and therefore will not make a difference.

Your desires are admirable Bob, and you can see the problem as far as I can tell. However, the solution as you present it is not going to ever happen because we will never have enough money to buy that kind of influence to change.

Even worse is the only laws being changed are the ones that allow those within the problem to extract more financing of the problem from yours and mine paychecks under threat of termination. They seem to somehow be able to get those type of laws changed to make the problem even bigger and the contiuance of financing of the said problem, but I do not see anyone getting the real issues corrected. And those issues as you know are the decimation of the middle class towards the dependent poor. To me it appears that the only gains being made are those that satisify the hunger for more unrelenting cash flow into the farce that does nothing more than make you, me, and everyone esle believe that there is some sanity to that which is really the root of the problem.