TWU negotiations.........what?

[Buck]

Does anyone know what the advantage to the TWU being on the Creditors Committee? Will it be reflected in any contracual agreement?

 

[FWAAA]

Does anyone know what the advantage to the TWU being on the Creditors Committee? Will it be reflected in any contracual agreement?

The three unions will no doubt receive some of the new AMR stock (the new stock that will replace the old stock which will be cancelled) and by being at the table, it can negotiate for its members. Additionally, as a member of the committee, it has a voice in approving or voting against major expenditures during the bankruptcy.

 

[Buck]

The three unions will no doubt receive some of the new AMR stock (the new stock that will replace the old stock which will be cancelled) and by being at the table, it can negotiate for its members. Additionally, as a member of the committee, it has a voice in approving or voting against major expenditures during the bankruptcy.

New AMR stock? I still have my shares from the last contract and also bought at .20 on the 29th of November.

 

[FWAAA]

New AMR stock? I still have my shares from the last contract and also bought at .20 on the 29th of November.

Yes, the new stock. The existing AMR common stock will be cancelled* when the plan of reorganization is confirmed. We've been over this before - your old shares from the "we're sorry we deceived you" 2003 options plus the shares you bought on the day of filing will expire worthless when the POR is confirmed. I've posted this a couple of times over the past month or so. A couple weeks before the bankruptcy filing, some posters were saying they bought a bunch of AMR on the off-chance that it would recover. That ain't going to happen. The unsecured creditors (and the greedy bastard management) will split up the new stock. The old stock will simply disappear - vanish - without any residual value. That's what happens in nearly every Ch 11 case.

*There is a miniscule chance that the old stock will retain some value, but the odds of that are up there with a lotto win - an extremely unlikely event.

 

[Buck]

Yes, the new stock. The existing AMR common stock will be cancelled* when the plan of reorganization is confirmed. We've been over this before - your old shares from the "we're sorry we deceived you" 2003 options plus the shares you bought on the day of filing will expire worthless when the POR is confirmed. I've posted this a couple of times over the past month or so. A couple weeks before the bankruptcy filing, some posters were saying they bought a bunch of AMR on the off-chance that it would recover. That ain't going to happen. The unsecured creditors (and the greedy bastard management) will split up the new stock. The old stock will simply disappear - vanish - without any residual value. That's what happens in nearly every Ch 11 case.

*There is a miniscule chance that the old stock will retain some value, but the odds of that are up there with a lotto win - an extremely unlikely event.

I know we have been over this issue. The only difference is that by your account the unions on the Creditors Committee will or could receive shares of the new stock.

 

[JFK Fleet Service]

Buck, that assumes they have the foresight to do that.None of them thought about snap back provisions in '03, I wouldn't expect to see the TWU secure anything meaningful on behalf of their membership.

The pilots may get themselves something but Little is concerned about keeping the most people paying dues, nothing more.

 

[eolesen]

Point of order... Its not fair to say nobody thought about snap backs, JFK.

The company said they wouldn't consider anything short of permanent structural change, which in layman speak is "no snap backs."

 

[Buck]

Buck, that assumes they have the foresight to do that.None of them thought about snap back provisions in '03, I wouldn't expect to see the TWU secure anything meaningful on behalf of their membership.

The pilots may get themselves something but Little is concerned about keeping the most people paying dues, nothing more.

Once, along time ago in a galaxy far away, I took a math course, Algebra I think, it tells me that Jim Little could settle for less people only if, 1: they made more or 2: he raises the dues multiplier. He can do that brother.

 

[Mr Red]

Point of order... Its not fair to say nobody thought about snap backs, JFK.

The company said they wouldn't consider anything short of permanent structural change, which in layman speak is "no snap backs."

Should have went chapter 11 that year !!

 

[Overspeed]

Point of order... Its not fair to say nobody thought about snap backs, JFK.

The company said they wouldn't consider anything short of permanent structural change, which in layman speak is "no snap backs."

I don't think that interpretation is entirely true. I understood that the APA negotiated a deeper pay cut initially in order to get work rule changes and training in place then have a partial snap back. So couldn't the TWU have negotiated work rule changes that led to higher productivity over the long term without involuntary RIFs and then a reinstatement of wages over time once certain productivity and value targets were met? So snap backs could have been possible for the TWU as long as we could deliver lower costs and higher value than we do currently?

The problem is people want snap back with business as usual. That won't fly.

 

[787nightmare]

I don't think that interpretation is entirely true. I understood that the APA negotiated a deeper pay cut initially in order to get work rule changes and training in place then have a partial snap back. So couldn't the TWU have negotiated work rule changes that led to higher productivity over the long term without involuntary RIFs and then a reinstatement of wages over time once certain productivity and value targets were met? So snap backs could have been possible for the TWU as long as we could deliver lower costs and higher value than we do currently?

The problem is people want snap back with business as usual. That won't fly.

Wow...now there's a post I can agree with you on.

Pardon my skepticism....but I have concerns over two points. 1) from what I've observed out at TULE in the short time I've been there, you guys really think you can make those "old dogs" learn new tricks & break habits formed over decades?(obide by new productivity rules/policy actually enforced) 2) management will have to adapt to a new (firmer/enforcement)style and run that place like a business. TULE is flat out of control. I just don't see it....

 

[Buck]

Wow...now there's a post I can agree with you on.

Pardon my skepticism....but I have concerns over two points. 1) from what I've observed out at TULE in the short time I've been there, you guys really think you can make those "old dogs" learn new tricks & break habits formed over decades?(obide by new productivity rules/policy actually enforced) 2) management will have to adapt to a new (firmer/enforcement)style and run that place like a business. TULE is flat out of control. I just don't see it....

A new "Scale" will have to be developed in negotiations that ensures that the next generation of employees will work at a faster pace. Old Guys / New Guys = Higher Productivity.



Someone Check My Math.

 

[787nightmare]

A new "Scale" will have to be developed in negotiations that ensures that the next generation of employees will work at a faster pace. Old Guys / New Guys = Higher Productivity.

Someone Check My Math.

Buck, newer mechs aren't going to bust there asses & do the heavy lifting, while they look at the old AA guys sitting around talking about the good ol days & BSin' about last weekend. TULE needs a whole new makeover -from what I've seen.

I also think the days of $20/hr starting rate and stringing mechs along for 5-6 yrs with the proverbial carrot in front of them are coming to an end. I've always thought it was ridiculous and has pissed me off for years that the unions let the airlines get away with this. I could be wrong, but don't see it happening in TULE.(cause of MROs setting the $ bar)...but hey...

 

[Buck]

Buck, newer mechs aren't going to bust there asses & do the heavy lifting, while they look at the old AA guys sitting around talking about the good ol days & BSin' about last weekend. TULE needs a whole new makeover -from what I've seen.

I also think the days of $20/hr starting rate and stringing mechs along for 5-6 yrs with the proverbial carrot in front of them are coming to an end. I've always thought it was ridiculous and has pissed me off for years that the unions let the airlines get away with this. I could be wrong, but don't see it happening in TULE.(cause of MROs setting the $ bar)...but hey...

You could be correct, but I do not believe you are on all points. Your first paragraph is probably true. The second however fails. Starting mechanic wage is $14.74 as of 05/01/08. Since not much has change since the last contract, that is mostlikely the going rate. In fact I believe I saw a similar figure on the AA Careers page, plus that is the information from the new mechanics being hired. I do not exactly what it is and have no solid reference. MRO's like AAR mention a different number in a news article recently, I believe it was $22 HR. So you could conclude that $14.74 plus $5.00 for both license would be in the ballpark.

 

[787nightmare]

You could be correct, but I do not believe you are on all points. Your first paragraph is probably true. The second however fails. Starting mechanic wage is $14.74 as of 05/01/08. Since not much has change since the last contract, that is mostlikely the going rate. In fact I believe I saw a similar figure on the AA Careers page, plus that is the information from the new mechanics being hired. I do not exactly what it is and have no solid reference. MRO's like AAR mention a different number in a news article recently, I believe it was $22 HR. So you could conclude that $14.74 plus $5.00 for both license would be in the ballpark.

Any way you slice it $20/hr is outrageous. Back in 92 I started at 16.48 with NWA. You tell me. Like has mentioned in many articles, this, IMO as well, is where unions have failed the aircraft mech miserably. FXs compensation puts many a union contract to utter shame. (plus a 33 mo step pay-last i heard)Yes, FX does it to one up the unions, but it's still pretty admirable nonetheless. WN is at about 27 or so to start... So, no 20/hr don't get it no mo.