TWU negotiations.........what?

[FWAAA]

If both presidents want to impose a fee or tax on a deregulated industry, is that not a regulatory move?

Sure, heavy taxes may appear to be a form of regulation, but I don't want to see a return of CAB-style regulation. I've read other posts of yours where you advocate a return of some form of regulation. IMO, no government employee should ever have power over an airline to control where they fly, how much (or little) they can charge, etc. Competition creates winners and losers. Great for the winners and yes, it sucks to be on the losing team.

My diatribe about both Presidents and Congress was to illustrate the ignorance among many who believe that excise taxes (like the various taxes imposed on airline tickets) are merely passed on by the airlines to the customers and don't impair the airlines' ability to make money. I've long believed that these taxes are essentially imposed on the airlines, hindering their ability to make money. Passengers are willing to spend $X amount of money on their ticket and it matters not whether 10% of the total price goes to various government agencies or whether 90% of their ticket price is handed over to government agencies. All that matters when someone decides to travel is the all-in price. And the higher those taxes and fees have become, the worse off airline employees have become. There may not be absolute causation, but even the blind can see the correlation.

 

[strikeforce]

Are we every going to get a answer, or is dec 1st the answer? STAY INFORMED LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There you go Paul nobody wants to answer this legitimate question from a member in good standing. Isn't this just typical of the TWU when they're put to task and the best they can do is ignore the question.

 

[Buck]

Sure, heavy taxes may appear to be a form of regulation, but I don't want to see a return of CAB-style regulation. I've read other posts of yours where you advocate a return of some form of regulation. IMO, no government employee should ever have power over an airline to control where they fly, how much (or little) they can charge, etc. Competition creates winners and losers. Great for the winners and yes, it sucks to be on the losing team.

My diatribe about both Presidents and Congress was to illustrate the ignorance among many who believe that excise taxes (like the various taxes imposed on airline tickets) are merely passed on by the airlines to the customers and don't impair the airlines' ability to make money. I've long believed that these taxes are essentially imposed on the airlines, hindering their ability to make money. Passengers are willing to spend $X amount of money on their ticket and it matters not whether 10% of the total price goes to various government agencies or whether 90% of their ticket price is handed over to government agencies. All that matters when someone decides to travel is the all-in price. And the higher those taxes and fees have become, the worse off airline employees have become. There may not be absolute causation, but even the blind can see the correlation.

We have pushed this off topic.

A return to a CAB form of regulation would place the industry where it was up to the late 1970's. When I say re regulate, I am stating that the government should protect something as large as the airline industry, not to allow it to be attack at every whim ( Delay Fines ). If regulation is not the answer, then we have basically two options a semi-regulated industry which is what I believe we have now or a full free market industry where, while at first devastating, would allow for the customer to really have a choice. The ability to purchase a ticket at under the cost of that service does not work in any scenario.

This appears to be what is happening in with the employees. While our representative negotiates, wages and benefits have suffered as if the industry were in a full free market. But at some point under the government regulation does happen and not just with the FAA. Employees are feeling the over taxation and blatant fining at the negotiation table. I think we are in agreement on the cost issue to the employee no matter where it comes from. Does this have any correlation to negotiations, maybe. I believe that when the company acquires a cost the attempt to place it on labor. A full free market industry could in turn push labor costs into a free market process. I see this as a push against industrial type, catch all unionism. Many in this company alone are advocating dividing certain sectors of the labor already. While I believe the TWU will not begin to allow their structure to be tapered with, it is obvious that the membership is upset.

 

[Buck]

OKC Needs Mechanics

 

[strikeforce]

I have a question for Bob Owens and/or any other local president or INTL officer on this site, and my question is in regard to the AA presidents council vote last month concerning "the release letter" in where a motion was made, seconded and approved to write a formal release letter to the NMB if a T/A is not reached with the company by November 30, 2011. This vote is part of the record and minutes within the president's council meeting.....Isn't the union OBLIGATED to move forward and write this letter now that November 30 will come and go without a T/A????? Or is that vote meaningless and Roberts Rules of Order just get's ignored. Isn't another motion required to recind the prior motion??????

totally amazing not ONE local or INTL officer will answer my question, not even Bob Owens! How pathetic is that!

 

[odie01]

OKC Needs Mechanics

Good find Buck. Looks like BO has some valid points about the supply and demand of A&P mechanics !

 

[Buck]

Good find Buck. Looks like BO has some valid points about the supply and demand of A&P mechanics !

It actually found me through a RSS Reader and an Airline News Feed.

 

[paul1]

totally amazing not ONE local or INTL officer will answer my question, not even Bob Owens! How pathetic is that!

Welll we are still waiting!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Buck]

 

[Hopeful]

totally amazing not ONE local or INTL officer will answer my question, not even Bob Owens! How pathetic is that!

Since noone will answer, maybe I can offer an answer or two...


A) "WELL, ER, YOU SEE, ER, IT'S LIKE THIS, ER...SINCE THAT NEGOTIATION SESSION WAS, ER, CANCELLED, THE VOTE WE TOOK TO REQUEST RELEASE, ER DOES NOT, ER APPLY!"

B) "OH, THAT VOTE IS NOW NULL AND VOID BECAUSE WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY TALKS AND WE HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE WHAT FLEET SERVICE DOES WITH THEIR TA AND WE HAVE TO SEE WHAT THE PILOTS GET AND WE REALLY DON'T WANT THE COMPANY TO BANKRUP!"

 

[TWU informer]

Since noone will answer, maybe I can offer an answer or two...


A) "WELL, ER, YOU SEE, ER, IT'S LIKE THIS, ER...SINCE THAT NEGOTIATION SESSION WAS, ER, CANCELLED, THE VOTE WE TOOK TO REQUEST RELEASE, ER DOES NOT, ER APPLY!"

B) "OH, THAT VOTE IS NOW NULL AND VOID BECAUSE WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY TALKS AND WE HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE WHAT FLEET SERVICE DOES WITH THEIR TA AND WE HAVE TO SEE WHAT THE PILOTS GET AND WE REALLY DON'T WANT THE COMPANY TO BANKRUP!"

It was really a much shorter answer.

"YOU DON'T SEE THE BIG PICTURE, BROTHER"

 

[OldGuy@AA]

It was really a much shorter answer.

"YOU DON'T SEE THE BIG PICTURE, BROTHER"

I can hear the ghost of Ed Wilson saying "They can do that brother."

 

[Buck]

I can hear the ghost of Ed Wilson saying "They can do that brother."

I think I smell union hall smoke, are those files on fire?

 

[Buck]

When I first read this, other than the indication of the IBT, I wondered if it was the same as the negotiations at AA/TWU? 11/24/11

So after a few hours of face to face with the company we have a new TA. Well, not a "new" TA but the same old "swiss cheese" TA brought to us the last time but with a couple of financial improvements. The big one is an impressive buy out that will most likely push this TA to ratification.

Since the rejection last June the Airline Division and Company have been meeting while at the same time the Airline Division sat on a letter from the NMB stating we can continue to negotiate on our own instead of amalgamation. A letter the IBT claimed we needed yet proved to be false.

Even before our newest negotiators met for the first time one previously appointed negotiator was stating that we will have a TA before Thanksgiving and possibly a buy out. Wow! I didn't see anything about a buy out on the survey.

It is obvious what this is and it really stinks. Please read the latest "Pass It On" issue 43 for more details.

Soon we will vote and as the clock ticks I am hearing more and more from others how again the union and company are holding our "industry leading" TA hostage. Instead we must wait until we negotiate a amalgamated contract to get this "industry leading" contract. The second bite of the apple quoting the IBT.

I must say this, the failure to bring us up to or close to Southwest Airline Wages and better scope in this next negotiations will be the death knell of the IBT. I can not see this membership accepting another failure and excuse from the IBT why they again have failed us. Lets hope we now have a group of negotiators who will dictate the negotiations and not the Airline Division and also lets hope the Airline Division does not pull their last minute deal with the company behind our backs. Something they have done more than once at other airlines. Stay strong and stay informed.

 

[Birdman]

The mediators told us a bunch of reasons why they felt the NMB would not release us, the economy, the election, the supposed state of the company, then they said that we needed to move towards the companies position. We tried that, all they do is move further away.

In regard to the stAAll tactics Bob has shared, I too think the compAAny has been pondering this move for some time. Why would they wastefully disperse millions of $$'s in lump sums to the major TWU work groups before they reached an agreement with the pilots if they weren't considering a BK filing if those talks failed? That's not exactly negotiating in good faith. Also, the mediators self withdrawal raised very high suspicion.

Q: Would the company save money by outsourcing M&E?

Snook: There is no analysis that suggests that selling off M&E would save us money. I do not believe it is on the table. I cannot predict what would happen in a bankruptcy scenario. Our plan is to keep M&E inside the organization.

There seems to be some contradiction in these statements. Why would BK change the fact that "There is no analysis that suggests that selling off M&E would save us money"? All those proclaiming O/H is toast by looking at the past practice of airline BK's ignore the fact that there is no longer a glut of skilled labor and excess MRO capacity. There is still an immediate need for AA to keep maintenance in tact for not only the expiring yield on their 737's and 757's, but the vast lease return maintenance that must be performed. Remember, they did not predict getting a grip on yield until the middle of next year. The fact is, the more confusion there is in the rank and file members, the easier it will be to manipulate us into an untenable position.