Its Both. The costs would go up but the liability goes down. Shedding Retiree Medical is in that summation as well, should have been clearer. Although they would have to lay out more cash now with a DB pension the fact that they would no longer have to prefund would save them a couple of million a year plus the $57 million windfall from confiscating the matching fund (M&R) along with being able to eliminate the liability for Retiree Medical off their books, the liability for the pension would shrink once workers start going on to the DC pension plan and older workers retire. AA said they were interested in an Early out offer, well once workers retire the liability is off AAs books, that would help their numbers as well.
TWU negotiations.........what?
- Thread starter Chuck Schalk
- Start date
Its Both. The costs would go up but the liability goes down. Shedding Retiree Medical is in that summation as well, should have been clearer. Although they would have to lay out more cash now with a DB pension the fact that they would no longer have to prefund would save them a couple of million a year plus the $57 million windfall from confiscating the matching fund (M&R) along with being able to eliminate the liability for Retiree Medical off their books, the liability for the pension would shrink once workers start going on to the DC pension plan and older workers retire. AA said they were interested in an Early out offer, well once workers retire the liability is off AAs books, that would help their numbers as well.
I realize that your numbers above are hypothetical, but you're overestimating the company's contribution toward your retirement by a factor of eight or ten. The company may be setting aside $31,200/year for pilots at the top of scale, with annual incomes in excess of $225k, but not for you.
The company set aside $520 million in 2011 for all 66,000 employees, or just about $7,900 per employee. The pilots, of course, get the lion's share, so it's probably two or three dollars per hour per mechanic contributed to the plan. Not $20.
If the DB plan was replaced with a Defined Contribution plan, you'd be lucky to get a company contribution of perhaps as much as 6% of your hourly pay plus a possible match capped at another 6% or so (assuming you maxed out your contribution). At $50/hr, the company would be contributing maybe $5/hr or $6/hr to your retirement.
strikeforce
Veteran
- Jan 18, 2011
- 1,224
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at $5 or $6/hr it maybe a tough call, but, given the uncertainty regarding my health at 60 or 65 I think I would venture towards having a for sure thing with a defined contribution plan. Using your figures may garnish 10K or 12K per yr and 190K to 273.6K til retirement being only 46, and with some good market years may push those numbers close to 300K. Combined with my 401K that I already have (non-company match) it might push me closer to 500K. Not knowing what health concerns I will have at 65.....I would rather give my wife 300K to 500K than give her $2900 per month and then have her die a year or two later and the rest go to AA. My dad died a year after retirement and my mom died 4 years after my dad. His company made out on that deal.
strikeforce
Veteran
- Jan 18, 2011
- 1,224
- 253
In another thread I asked Bob Owens why local presidents are compelled to bringing back crappy T/A's just to appease the NMB or TWU INTL. Well, I was reading an article related to the NBA players lockout and in this article the NBA players association counsel made reference to bringing back a "bad" deal to the players. Enjoy!
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/story/2011-11-07/Details-of-NBAs-next-proposal-to-players-revealed/51116510/1
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/story/2011-11-07/Details-of-NBAs-next-proposal-to-players-revealed/51116510/1
- Aug 20, 2002
- 7,319
- 1,555
Leading Edge
Ours is an industry full of interesting and pretty cool “stuff.” The machines are fascinating; the tools are fun to work with. We touch a lot of “stuff” through the course of every day. Whether we are dealing with tools, machines, parts, or aircraft, we often exhibit a tendency to focus on the “stuff” around us. The reality is that tools do not fix aircraft. Machines do not maintain our aircraft, and the aircraft themselves do nothing on their own. Everything we touch requires a person at some point of the process. As with any team, the people and their attitudes are critical. All of us have seen sports teams that are at the top of their games. They have the best equipment, the best infrastructure, and the best expertise. Then that day comes when a team with less brings more to the game – more heart, more desire, more drive – and the top team is no longer on top. History is full of examples where a team or an army appears lacking on paper, but in the real world, they find success in spite of overwhelming obstacles. It all boils down to the people. A few days ago, I was fortunate to sit down with the annual winners of our M&E Outstanding People Awards. Each quarter, this program recognizes employees who are nominated by their co-workers as representing out-standing achievement in the areas of Above and Beyond, Community Spirit, Customer Service, Innovation, Leader-ship, Safety, and Technical Excellence. The group that I sat down with had not only won their quarterly awards, but they were then selected as the best of the best for the year. I was proud of this group and humbled by the knowledge that they are representative of employees throughout our organization. This year we brought back the Golden Wrench Award. After an absence of almost ten years, we recognized that we were remiss in failing to recognize the expertise of American Airlines’ Aviation Maintenance Tech-nicians (AMTs) and M&E Support Personnel. We established this award in 1989. It is our highest honor for those recognized by their peers for having distinguished themselves as the best in the industry. Since its inception through 2001, we have awarded the Golden Wrench to approximately 275 AA technicians. I am glad that we brought the award back. Our people deserve that kind of tribute. This issue of Leading Edge recognizes the people of Maintenance and Engineering. The cover spotlights Al Blackman of New York. Al began his career with Ameri-can Airlines before most of us were even born. He continues to serve American at JFK as an aircraft maintenance crew chief. This will be our first edition to remind all of us of the efforts of co-workers and their families when someone leaves the security of home and goes out in service of our country. Each November, when the nation celebrates Veterans Day, we will tell the stories of our military families. In this issue, we will look at Women in AAviation, one of our inspection teams, and a thorough examination of the history of the men and women of MOC. I hope that you enjoy this recognition and celebration of the people of M&E. I hope that all of us are reminded that in spite of our differences, our frustrations, and our obstacles, we are all part of the same M&E team. Re-member that on the end of a long train of all the “stuff” is a person. That person has the same goal as you – put a safe, dependable product at the gate on time for our customers. Thank you for everything that you do. Work safe, work smart, and help us to get it right the first time. I will see you around the system. I hope that you enjoy this rec-ognition and celebration of the people of M&E. I hope that all of us are reminded that in spite of our differ-ences, our frustrations, and our obstacles, we are all part of the same M&E team.
LE
Ours is an industry full of interesting and pretty cool “stuff.” The machines are fascinating; the tools are fun to work with. We touch a lot of “stuff” through the course of every day. Whether we are dealing with tools, machines, parts, or aircraft, we often exhibit a tendency to focus on the “stuff” around us. The reality is that tools do not fix aircraft. Machines do not maintain our aircraft, and the aircraft themselves do nothing on their own. Everything we touch requires a person at some point of the process. As with any team, the people and their attitudes are critical. All of us have seen sports teams that are at the top of their games. They have the best equipment, the best infrastructure, and the best expertise. Then that day comes when a team with less brings more to the game – more heart, more desire, more drive – and the top team is no longer on top. History is full of examples where a team or an army appears lacking on paper, but in the real world, they find success in spite of overwhelming obstacles. It all boils down to the people. A few days ago, I was fortunate to sit down with the annual winners of our M&E Outstanding People Awards. Each quarter, this program recognizes employees who are nominated by their co-workers as representing out-standing achievement in the areas of Above and Beyond, Community Spirit, Customer Service, Innovation, Leader-ship, Safety, and Technical Excellence. The group that I sat down with had not only won their quarterly awards, but they were then selected as the best of the best for the year. I was proud of this group and humbled by the knowledge that they are representative of employees throughout our organization. This year we brought back the Golden Wrench Award. After an absence of almost ten years, we recognized that we were remiss in failing to recognize the expertise of American Airlines’ Aviation Maintenance Tech-nicians (AMTs) and M&E Support Personnel. We established this award in 1989. It is our highest honor for those recognized by their peers for having distinguished themselves as the best in the industry. Since its inception through 2001, we have awarded the Golden Wrench to approximately 275 AA technicians. I am glad that we brought the award back. Our people deserve that kind of tribute. This issue of Leading Edge recognizes the people of Maintenance and Engineering. The cover spotlights Al Blackman of New York. Al began his career with Ameri-can Airlines before most of us were even born. He continues to serve American at JFK as an aircraft maintenance crew chief. This will be our first edition to remind all of us of the efforts of co-workers and their families when someone leaves the security of home and goes out in service of our country. Each November, when the nation celebrates Veterans Day, we will tell the stories of our military families. In this issue, we will look at Women in AAviation, one of our inspection teams, and a thorough examination of the history of the men and women of MOC. I hope that you enjoy this recognition and celebration of the people of M&E. I hope that all of us are reminded that in spite of our differences, our frustrations, and our obstacles, we are all part of the same M&E team. Re-member that on the end of a long train of all the “stuff” is a person. That person has the same goal as you – put a safe, dependable product at the gate on time for our customers. Thank you for everything that you do. Work safe, work smart, and help us to get it right the first time. I will see you around the system. I hope that you enjoy this rec-ognition and celebration of the people of M&E. I hope that all of us are reminded that in spite of our differ-ences, our frustrations, and our obstacles, we are all part of the same M&E team.
LE
- Aug 20, 2002
- 7,319
- 1,555
The AA thing is an unsigned letter, my bet is it came from the International.
Back to UAL, according the Article UAL has 5500 M&R with 356 aircraft.
15.5 per aircraft.
We have 11500 M&R with 615 aircraft, 18.6 per aircraft.
So despite the fact that we do nearly all of our OH and we are told UAL sends most of theirs out there is only around a three man difference per aircraft between the two carriers.
AA has around 4000 line mechanics and 2000 facilities mechanics. Probably around 1000 of those facility mechanics are in OH, so figure the line makes up around 5000 and OH 6000. So Line workers at AA are around 8 mechanics per aircraft.
Apparently UAL does more OH than we are told or they have a hell of a lot more line mechanics per airplane than we do.
In 2009 UAL said that outsourced maintenance services made up 13% of their total operating expenses,(based on 2007 numbers) and AA does most of that work in house with only 3 more heads per airplane. Seems like the jury is out, OH saves AA a ton of money!
No, UAL never spent 13% of its total operating expenses on outsourced maintenance alone. Not in 2007, not in any single year. Dunno which math-challenged person said that they did, but it's simply false.
You keep claiming there's some super-large document that supports such nonsense. I've repeatedly posted my email address in response to your offers to send it to me. Yet you have not emailed it. Afraid it doesn't actually support your claim?
Feel free to send it to fwaaa10 at yahoo dot com
Dunno where the 5,500 number came from, but it is not accurate. According to the UA 10-K, UA had just 4,728 mechanics and related at the end of 2010. 5,500? Nope.
That works out to just 13.3 mechanics per aircraft compared to 18.6 at AA. That 5.3 extra AA M&R per plane works out to 3,260 extra AA mechanics and related at AA that wouldn't be at AA if AA mirrored UAL's maintenance practices (including outsourcing most or all of its heavy airframe overhaul). Add to that the bloated AA management staff at TULE and DWH that could be let go if AA outsourced its heavy airframe overhaul.
The letter to the DFW newspaper reads word for word exactly like TWU Informer's posts here on this website - my guess is that he was the author.
Dont recall you ever posting your Email address before. Done, the whole thing, the page I quoted is attached below.
Does your figure include Facilities mechanics? When was the 10K from?
They could probably shed most of those jobs without outsourcing the work.
I've seen the E-mail and my guess is your guess is wrong.
Thank you. I'll look at it.
Yes, the 4,728 Maintenance and Related figure comes from the 10-K filed earlier this year as of 13/31/10. I've seen some news articles that reference the 5,500 number but the same articles reference almost the exact total for CO maintenance and related of 3,600 (matching the 12/31/10 numbers from the 10-K). In looking at the 2007 10-K, UAL said that M&R totaled 5,500 in 2007, when UAL had 9,000 more employees than it does now (and 460 planes, about 100 more than it flies now). Looks like the media may be using an old number, unless UAL has hired 800 net new mechanics this year. UAL facilities maintenance are represented by the IBT, right?
AA has hired 463 since 12/31/2011. Overtime hours are at record levels, they could easily hire 500 more if they could find them. AA is basically raiding Eagle, and oddly enough, in NY, Delta, for mechanics.
As per the RLA, Yes.
I'm talking net new mechanics, over and above attrition. AA is just keeping up with the 500 or so who leave each year (your number).
At 12/31/07, UAL had 460 aircraft v. 360 at 12/31/10. If the 5,500 total M&R UAL listed in the 2007 10-K was correct, I'm pretty certain that UAL doesn't have 5,500 M&R right now v. just 4,728 at the end of 2010. No way has UAL hired 800 net new mechanics over and above attrition so far this year.
I saw on aacareers that AA is hiring AMTs with license in TULE at $19.74/hr (incl license premium). $41k starting pay isn't terrible, especially for overhaul work that can be performed anywhere in the world with a runway and a workforce of guys with wrenches (yes, I realize that English skills may be lacking in many of those places and that quality may be substandard). What is terrible is the top-out pay for the AA line at just over $33/hr when the market value of that labor is easily worth $50/hr (your overtime rate, no?) or more.
Are you sure your 4728 includes Facilities? At AA they would be included in the contract, but not listed as Aircraft Mechanics for maintenance budgeting etc. They fall under Marketing. So in the 10K reports they probably would not be included as M&R.
At AA there are 9600 M&E TWU employees plus around 2000 Facilities. So the ratio fits.
Actually attrition is low this year, guys are sticking around to see what happens, retro etc. Once the contract is settled expect a surge of retirees, if it doesnt turn out well, add resignations and terminations as well.
